Areas of competition on defense (1 Viewer)

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I think you make some good points. My problem is this: Why does Corey White's complete inability to make a positive contribution get a pass, but Jenkins' bad season doesn't? Jenkins biggest problem was he missed way too many tackles this season, a problem that he didn't really have under GW where he was filling from centerfield. Perhaps it was adjusting to the different angles playing from the shell Spags likes to use. But he still made a ton of effort plays, particularly in the Bucs game where he chased down Vincent Jackson and then was key in the goal line stand.

I get it--those plays are forgotten when a player underperforms. And I'm not saying they shouldn't be. But Corey White--in the snaps he received--was atrocious. Not only did he not make plays, but he gave them up by the handful. When he was on the field, he was hands down our worst defender on a very bad defense.

Now is that his fault? No. He was a late round pick from a tiny school who was pressed into a new position in an extremely complicated defense. He was set up to fail. But I don't get the argument of him having more upside than Jenkins, who has actually had some very good seasons. Is it the draft pick/pay thing? We give a pass to low draft picks who aren't paid much money but crucify anyone who happened to be drafted early (not saying you specifically guillermo, but with a post or 2 that preceded yours).

I think White has a future--hope he does. I think that future is at safety. But I don't get how people are ready to give up on Jenkins--who again, had 2 good seasons previous to Spags becoming the DC--and are big fans of Corey White.

Heck, just compare their rookie years, where Jenkins was at CB and contributed much more than White did. He experienced growing pains too, but I'm sure if someone goes back and compares them statistically, we'll see exactly how much better a CB Jenkins was as a rookie than White was.

Mainly just because people saw that Interception that Corey White made the game b4 he got hurt and they attribute that to him coming on.

From my POV he was in good coverage on a 1 route. No agility required..nothing just turn and run with the receiver and locate the ball. Which he did.

However, i cant ignore what i saw the other games with him on the outside. He doesn't change directions well and he gives up a lot of cushion and he doesn't have good closing speed. He is however very physical and came up in run support with some solid shots.

 

[StRonaldo]

Remeber ya'll, this is White's 2nd year, it takes some several years to mature. White had spurts he looked good and then again spurts where he looked lost. I think the jury is still out on him. The coaches no more than me so what ever they decide i'll support!

 

[guillermo]

I think you make some good points. My problem is this: Why does Corey White's complete inability to make a positive contribution get a pass, but Jenkins' bad season doesn't? Jenkins biggest problem was he missed way too many tackles this season, a problem that he didn't really have under GW where he was filling from centerfield. Perhaps it was adjusting to the different angles playing from the shell Spags likes to use. But he still made a ton of effort plays, particularly in the Bucs game where he chased down Vincent Jackson and then was key in the goal line stand.

I get it--those plays are forgotten when a player underperforms. And I'm not saying they shouldn't be. But Corey White--in the snaps he received--was atrocious. Not only did he not make plays, but he gave them up by the handful. When he was on the field, he was hands down our worst defender on a very bad defense.

Now is that his fault? No. He was a late round pick from a tiny school who was pressed into a new position in an extremely complicated defense. He was set up to fail. But I don't get the argument of him having more upside than Jenkins, who has actually had some very good seasons. Is it the draft pick/pay thing? We give a pass to low draft picks who aren't paid much money but crucify anyone who happened to be drafted early (not saying you specifically guillermo, but with a post or 2 that preceded yours).

I think White has a future--hope he does. I think that future is at safety. But I don't get how people are ready to give up on Jenkins--who again, had 2 good seasons previous to Spags becoming the DC--and are big fans of Corey White.

Heck, just compare their rookie years, where Jenkins was at CB and contributed much more than White did. He experienced growing pains too, but I'm sure if someone goes back and compares them statistically, we'll see exactly how much better a CB Jenkins was as a rookie than White was.

I know you are not ranting on me , and indeed I don't give a pass on Jenkins. I think his position is the slot, covering both receivers and tight ends there. I am not thinking of him as a starter at either corner or safety.

And about White, he was bad in his first games but I think he was getting better before the injury. I am not saying he is a keeper, but I think he should get a chance (I disagree with you though in that I can see him more playing man as a corner then safety).

But I think that is beyond the point. I am concerned when I think I really don't trust Greer and Robinson as starting corners, my best bet for safety is Quddus and I only see Jenkins as a slot defensive back.

Fortunatelly, safety is one of the cheapest positions in football, and there are some good ones available. If we are going to spend in one free agent this season, I think safety is the way to go. I think we will have to recruit our starting corners in the following drafts (not only in 2013) and we may also grab another safety in this year's draft.

I am very confused on the near future of our secondary, and I just hope that Rob Ryan has a clear idea of what he wants to do and get the resources to do so.

EDIT: A lot of our numbers will be so much better if we finally were able to avoid the classic 2 big plays we had per game, coming either from the pass as from the run, that is why I think that a "sheriff" safety is so important.

Also, I really hope that Ryan stopped our common practice of leaving a huge space between the receiver and our corners. There were games that just throwing or running to the outside will guarantee a first down against us. We need more contact close to the line of scrimmige.

 

[RiverRat]

I see Corey white more so competing for the #2 CB spot. He's sized more appropriately than P-Rob and (from what I saw last year) more aggressive. He's more likely to win jump balls against the roddy whites and the calvin johnsons. I also think he's probably got the best hands out of all of our DBs.

Did he blow coverages last year? Yeah, but so did everyone else. Give him some proper coaching, and I think he'll be able to jam receivers like we need in order for the 3-4 to work.

We also can't forget about johnny patrick.

 

[GhostSaint]

I agree Jenkins is getting the bad rap for a down year. I think White is better suited for Safety than corner. I also like some of what we got to see from IAQ this year. I am not on the bandwagon that Harper is a horrible safety that some here seem to be. It gives you an interesting group of players on our back end.

I do believe J. Patrick was worse than White played this year. So I have a hard time calling White attrocious, as I would save that moniker for J. Patrick's play. He looked lost.

In my opinion J. Vilma has played his best ball. Although he is a favorite of mine, I don't think he is ideal for the 3-4. His best ball came from the 4-3.

I think we need the bigger ILB to really solidfy the run support. Guys that can take on blocks and still get the ball. I think this is one of Vilma's biggest weaknesses. Vilma historically has been successful at beating the block to the ball. At the tail end of last year though, even though he got there before the block, he was missing arm tackles. Looked like he couldnt change directions nearly as easily. Hopefully I am wrong, he was trying to get into game shape with the knee and all, but I still believe if he comes back it is at a lower salary.

 

[RiverRat]

My only major concern at the safety position is: do we have a guy with the speed to be a "center-fielder?" IAQ definitely seems to play the ball better, but is Jenkins faster?

 

[stevend]

ILB: Lofton, Hawthorne, Vilma: I think you have 3 capable starters there, and I include Vilma b/c I think he'll restructure, and he is too valuable as leader of this defense to casually let him go. Hawthorne and Lofton are built for the 3-4... downhill, run-stuffers. Vilma is physically more of a nickel option, but if he can regain his 2009 form he will be hard to keep off the field. He may not be suited for a 3-4, but he played it plenty under GW and I think he is quietly becoming the forgotten man.

OLB: Galette, Wilson, Casillas + draft pick/FA: I think Galette could play that WOLB spot where he's rushing a good 75% of the time. You put Wilson at the SAM because he has more experience in coverage. That said, I am ready to anoint Galette as a starter. Wilson... not so much. I think he has the potential to dominate and will benefit from this move regardless, but he has to show the consistency and physicality to be an every down player vs. the run, especially if he's playing the strong side. Casillas is a darkhorse. He is an effective blitzer off the edge but really lacks some size to take on offensive tackles. You can bet this will be a position emphasized in the offseason.

My thought on LB is:

Vilma SAM (I too thinks he does a new deal and stays), Lofton & Hawthorne on the inside and Wilson at Will. I think on passing downs Wilson will move inside (in place of Hawthorne) and Galette will play Will.

That is of course if we don't draft a LB high or sign a FA.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

If there is something to look forward to this offseason, it's the competition that we're going to see on defense.

Safety:

IAQ, Jenkins, Harper (if he isn't released). I would throw Corey White in there because I don't think his future is at CB. R. Bush is another guy, but I don't think he'll push for a starter's role. A draft pick or free agent is sure to come as well. I think IAQ has a very good chance to emerge as a starter at either SS or FS. He showed a lot last year not only as a starter, but the past 2 seasons in subpackages. I think he's ready to step up and take on a larger role in the defense.

CB:

P. Robinson, Greer, Mack, Jenkins... and you can surely throw in a FA pick up or a draft pick. I do not see Corey White as having a chance. I think Jenkins needs to be in the mix. He is a much more talented version of Corey White w/ some proven cover skills and may be a better fit here than safety. And most of all, I feel like Patrick Robinson played his way out of a job last year. I love his talent and his ball skills, but he is too lazy in his technique and inconsistent. Maybe he turns it around in Ryan's scheme, but I just don't see the attention to detail for him to be a reliable every-down CB.

Man this truly is a shame if P.Rob and Jenkins cant turn it round. That would be a long string of 1st round picks that dont pan out.

 

[Saint_Ward]

I think the ILB's will be interesting. 3 contracts that won't all be kept. Vilma would have to restructure, as you stated. But what's interesting is that Hawthorne and Lofton both got small signing bonuses, and a very large year two roster bonus. One is 5M and the other is 3-4M (I forgot). One of those two can actually be cut.

I think what the team does with Vilma is the key for the other two. Also, it depends on what Payton and Ryan have in mind for the types of ILB's they want. Will Lofton be asked to do more coverage? If so, he may get released. Hard to say.

 

[brickfish]

Corey White was really turning the corner before he got hurt. He's fine at CB. I don't think Jenkins showed much more at corner than he has at FS. He has the same strengths/weaknesses at both positions.

Here's an idea I've been throwing around...
Trade Harper. The contract math works out. I think we could get a 4th or 5th rounder.
Move MJ to SS and IAQ to FS. In Ryan's 3-4 (and pretty much the NFL nowadays), the safeties need to be versatile, be able to cover, and are more or less interchangeable.

Crazy?

 

[CitySaint]

The competition I'd like to see starts at nose. I want a nose who can compete with Bunkley for snaps, that way Hicks is fully invested in playing end, and I'd love to see he and Smith competing for snaps there, which would be insane because Smith is a great leader/high character player, he is not going to take a competition laying down, and Hicks is hungry.

 

[Darkhorse985]

I don't see Casillas as a fit at all in a 3-4. Also, I don't get the idea to move Corey White to safety. I don't think we need another experiment at FS like Jenkins. We need to sign a proven FS from a deep free agent class to improve a very weak area of our pass defense. IAQ may develop into a solid safety, but I wouldn't bank on not adding any other significant talent via FA or the draft.

 

[CitySaint]

I think you make some good points. My problem is this: Why does Corey White's complete inability to make a positive contribution get a pass, but Jenkins' bad season doesn't? Jenkins biggest problem was he missed way too many tackles this season, a problem that he didn't really have under GW where he was filling from centerfield. Perhaps it was adjusting to the different angles playing from the shell Spags likes to use. But he still made a ton of effort plays, particularly in the Bucs game where he chased down Vincent Jackson and then was key in the goal line stand.

I get it--those plays are forgotten when a player underperforms. And I'm not saying they shouldn't be. But Corey White--in the snaps he received--was atrocious. Not only did he not make plays, but he gave them up by the handful. When he was on the field, he was hands down our worst defender on a very bad defense.

Now is that his fault? No. He was a late round pick from a tiny school who was pressed into a new position in an extremely complicated defense. He was set up to fail. But I don't get the argument of him having more upside than Jenkins, who has actually had some very good seasons. Is it the draft pick/pay thing? We give a pass to low draft picks who aren't paid much money but crucify anyone who happened to be drafted early (not saying you specifically guillermo, but with a post or 2 that preceded yours).

I think White has a future--hope he does. I think that future is at safety. But I don't get how people are ready to give up on Jenkins--who again, had 2 good seasons previous to Spags becoming the DC--and are big fans of Corey White.

Heck, just compare their rookie years, where Jenkins was at CB and contributed much more than White did. He experienced growing pains too, but I'm sure if someone goes back and compares them statistically, we'll see exactly how much better a CB Jenkins was as a rookie than White was.

I don't know, Jenkins rookie season and Whites were pretty much a draw, maybe a slight edge to Jenkins, but the defense Jenkins was on his rookie season was light years better than this previous one. Add to that fact, White looked horrible and the safeties(Jenkins) backing him up looked horrible. All in all the corners looked even worse because of them.

White was put in the absolute worst position a DB could be placed. Shifting from safety to corner as a rookie, forced into playing unprepared, zero pass rush, bad safety play backing him up.

Jenkins could not have had it easier. Pass rush beating the brakes off of QB's, a defense that is a turnover machine, A HOF safety backing you up.

I already did a video of the targets to Jenkins his rookie year, this weekend I can make one of White for comparison, not expecting to see much positive.

 

[CRESS_137]

Agree with your assessment of IAQ.
Do you plan to write about the Offensive Line projections?
I'd be interested to hear your take on the Rookie OL on the injured reserve last year.

 

[TCUDan]

Corey White was really turning the corner before he got hurt. He's fine at CB. I don't think Jenkins showed much more at corner than he has at FS. He has the same strengths/weaknesses at both positions.

Here's an idea I've been throwing around...
Trade Harper. The contract math works out. I think we could get a 4th or 5th rounder.
Move MJ to SS and IAQ to FS. In Ryan's 3-4 (and pretty much the NFL nowadays), the safeties need to be versatile, be able to cover, and are more or less interchangeable.

Crazy?

I don't see how White keeps getting a pass and people say he's "fine" at CB when he was the worst-rated CB in coverage in the NFL when he was on the field. He showed an inability to cover WRs and got killed on 3rd downs.

I've seen the move MJ to SS argument... not saying it wouldn't work, but the logic behind it baffles me since his biggest weakness was tackling...

I don't know, Jenkins rookie season and Whites were pretty much a draw, maybe a slight edge to Jenkins, but the defense Jenkins was on his rookie season was light years better than this previous one. Add to that fact, White looked horrible and the safeties(Jenkins) backing him up looked horrible. All in all the corners looked even worse because of them.

White was put in the absolute worst position a DB could be placed. Shifting from safety to corner as a rookie, forced into playing unprepared, zero pass rush, bad safety play backing him up.

Jenkins could not have had it easier. Pass rush beating the brakes off of QB's, a defense that is a turnover machine, A HOF safety backing you up.

I already did a video of the targets to Jenkins his rookie year, this weekend I can make one of White for comparison, not expecting to see much positive.

I understand the pass rush argument... but the rest is not even close. Jenkins played nickel throughout the playoffs and did a tremendous job, including the SB. He was forced to start during the season. He got exposed on occasion but he didn't get owned every time the ball was thrown his way... which I think QB passer ratings vs. Corey White was like 120 or something ridiculous.

I agree, the entire defense was horrible but that's my point: why are we crucifying a safety for having a down year on a horrible defense while giving a CB a pass? If anything, CB is a much easier to judge. I can watch Corey White play, watch his inability to adjust in/out of his man's breaks, how SIMPLE routes left him way out of the play. He was horrible in transition. Either his technique is just woefully underdeveloped or he does not have the physical ability to cover WRs man-man. I would have to go back and watch to figure out which, but I can tell you right now he lost probably 90% of those situations where he was targeted in coverage... and that's not an exaggeration.

I'm not trying to be hard on the kid, he was thrown into some adverse set of circumstances. I am just baffled at how positive some people are about him--as if they saw something out of him--while completely writing off Jenkins who prior to this season was one of our most productive defenders.

I see Corey white more so competing for the #2 CB spot. He's sized more appropriately than P-Rob and (from what I saw last year) more aggressive. He's more likely to win jump balls against the roddy whites and the calvin johnsons. I also think he's probably got the best hands out of all of our DBs.

Did he blow coverages last year? Yeah, but so did everyone else. Give him some proper coaching, and I think he'll be able to jam receivers like we need in order for the 3-4 to work.

We also can't forget about johnny patrick.

See above.

There is a difference between blowing coverages and appearing incapable of covering. He lost those 1-on-1 battles. It was not an issue of scheme, it was an issue of ability.

My only major concern at the safety position is: do we have a guy with the speed to be a "center-fielder?" IAQ definitely seems to play the ball better, but is Jenkins faster?

IAQ has no issues with speed/range. But I do think he is at his best coming downhill and would be a natural SS. Plus he is a serious hitter. But he can play either safety position.