arrested for saggy pants in LA. (1 Viewer)

We both know what you are trying to do here that's where pretentious comes from.

I really don't. What am I trying to do? And how is it pretentious? It looks like what I think I am trying to do and what you think I am trying to do are two different things.

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I really don't. What am I trying to do? And how is it pretentious? It looks like what I think I am trying to do and what you think I am trying to do are two different things.

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Lol okie dokie :)
 
dont_tread_on_me.gif
 
I'm normally the last to bring in race to an issue, but let's not act like the people who dress like this aren't predominantly black and the people who have an issue with it aren't predominantly white...

Race in an issue like this is tricky.

I know that there have been black elected officials who have supported sagging laws so for some, that might be enough to conclude that race can't then be an issue.

Or the fact that sagging isn't entirely specific to young black men, that might be enough for some to conclude that race isn't a factor.

But I think a meaningful consideration of race has to go further than such basic considerations.

I think a starting point is establishing the basis for these laws. If it is a standard of decency - as we've already discussed in this thread, there are certainly other trends and styles that don't draw the same kind of negative backlash and support for new legislation.

So if sagging, among fashion trends that could be considered, is uniquely offensive, next I think we have to consider who is more commonly associated with the trend. In places where styles and cultures are more racially and culturally integrated, particularly among youth, that might be somewhat more blurred. In a place like Crowley, based on my familiarity with small, southern towns, I think that's less likely going to be the case.

Next, at what point is sagging determined to be offensive and are there racial, cultural, and class distinctions within the trend? Is it offensive to the point of needing to be illegal if a couple of inches of waistband and cloth are exposed or do pants need to sit really low?

All of which can set the stage for the existence of any disparity in enforcement, as well as in media coverage of those offenses.

If people of all races and classes are sagging, are people of all races and classes being cited or arrested in similar proportion?

Far from scientific, but just randomly clicking on links from the first few pages of a Google search revealed only instances of black men being ticketed or arrested. Of course that might be entirely unrepresentative of the bigger picture but then I wonder if anybody here will make the case that sagging is a trend that is most often associated with white people and that police contact, arrests, and court proceedings would show that there is no discernible racial disparity, or, in fact, that white people are most often prosecuted for such crimes?

Or going back to the original citation for this thread, though I don't often visit The Blaze and might be easily proven wrong (which is okay) would there have been an article there had it been three, young, middle class white guys arrested for sagging, and filed under the crime section? In fact, if this is such racially-neutral societal problem, it should be easy to find such articles, including on The Blaze, I'm assuming.
 
Lol okie dokie :)

I still don't follow. I've asked a couple of times what you mean by the accusation. I won't ask a third and will just assume you don't have a substantive answer.

That's fine. Making assertions and not supporting them meaningfully appears to be sort of your thing in the thread so far and that's helpful to know going forward.

If you don't mind me asking, would you let your daughter dress that way?

That depends.

How old is she in this hypothetical?

I'd ask the same if you used "wife" in place of "daughter." Right now, if you asked about my wife, I'd say not only did I have no problem but I might insist. In 20 years, I'd probably feel my wife is probably too old, but my daughter would be a bona fide adult and that particular wardrobe choice wouldn't be particularly offputting.

So there's a relativity.
 
I still don't follow. I've asked a couple of times what you mean by the accusation. I won't ask a third and will just assume you don't have a substantive answer.

That's fine. Making assertions and not supporting them meaningfully appears to be sort of your thing in the thread so far and that's helpful to know going forward.



That depends.

How old is she in this hypothetical?

I'd ask the same if you used "wife" in place of "daughter." Right now, if you asked about my wife, I'd say not only did I have no problem but I might insist. In 20 years, I'd probably feel my wife is probably too old, but my daughter would be a bona fide adult and that particular wardrobe choice wouldn't be particularly offputting.

So there's a relativity.


Ahahaha oh my man exactly you'll survive no worries ;)
 
Because dress should be legislated...We have enough silly laws on the books. What's to stop them from taking it a step farther and instituting a "stop and frisk" like Houston and NYC? Where does it end? I'm normally the last to bring in race to an issue, but let's not act like the people who dress like this aren't predominantly black and the people who have an issue with it aren't predominantly white...

I personally don't like the look. There are no black people in my town, but there are a lot of kids that all wear their pants down to the back of their butt cheeks. I don't want to see it. I don't say a word to them outside of my home. Once inside my house though, get a belt.
 
Next, at what point is sagging determined to be offensive and are there racial, cultural, and class distinctions within the trend? Is it offensive to the point of needing to be illegal if a couple of inches of waistband and cloth are exposed or do pants need to sit really low?

All of which can set the stage for the existence of any disparity in enforcement, as well as in media coverage of those offenses.

If people of all races and classes are sagging, are people of all races and classes being cited or arrested in similar proportion?

Far from scientific, but just randomly clicking on links from the first few pages of a Google search revealed only instances of black men being ticketed or arrested. Of course that might be entirely unrepresentative of the bigger picture but then I wonder if anybody here will make the case that sagging is a trend that is most often associated with white people and that police contact, arrests, and court proceedings would show that there is no discernible racial disparity, or, in fact, that white people are most often prosecuted for such crimes?

This gets the thread on a more constructive track.

I've had two personal experiences with this dynamic and law enforcement officials. One was direct and the other was indirect. I was talking with a parole officer who worked in north Louisiana in a parish or municipality where this was a law.

We were talking about harassing youth one day and he brought up this law and said that it was implemented to stop young black males (his words) who might have gang affiliations but couldn't be pinned for anything else or stopped for any other reason. Looking at the numbers, there was definitely a racial imbalance.

But it wasn't out of line with the other statistical analyses about general population demographics vs. incarcerated demographics and the disparities along racial boundaries.

So it's hard to say whether or not this was specifically a form of harassment, different from other means, or simply another tool used to perpetuate that disproportionality.

The second example was with a group I had worked a bit with in the NY area on youth profiling vis a vis criminality. This team's experience was much more widespread and documented in terms of who was pulled over and when for this reason. The racial disparities once again were evident, but on a greater scale.

It wouldn't be the first time laws were put in place for reasons of harassing kids of color or marginalized kids from other demographics (e.g. goth, homeless) so I think the presence/role of racism is a valid issue within the broader context.

But that doesn't mean the law itself is necessarily racist. It cannot be ruled out and there are other precedents that have had similar impacts, so the question is reasonably begged.
 
I believe that racist idiots can wear hoods and spout their nonsense and stupid kids can walk like ducks so their pants don't fall off.....That is the American way.
 
I bet you don't complain when a hottie wearing tight jeans bend over and the top of her thong slides up.

I don't care for pants sagging around a guy's thighs but I also hope we never reach the point that people are arrested for their choice in wardrobe. Oh well, too late. Maybe I should just hope I wont get arrested for not getting the right hair cut like in North Korea.

Damn right I don't.
 
So it's hard to say whether or not this was specifically a form of harassment, different from other means, or simply another tool used to perpetuate that disproportionality.

I'm more inclined to see these kinds of laws as an overreaching means of establishing probable cause, at the enforcement level, even if the original intentions for the laws might vary beyond that.

I think when pants are worn low enough to impede a person's ability to walk with ease, it crosses over to the absurd, but that shouldn't be grounds for illegality. If somebody wants to look like a cartoon character, waddling around with their pants bunched up, but 'everything' is otherwise covered, have at it. There have been some stupid clothing trends in my life including others that I'm sure some people found offensive. I don't recall middle class, suburban kids getting harassed by the cops and arrested for wearing spandex shorts or parachute pants (the tight ones, not the MC ones) back in the 80s, but maybe that happened.
 
I am so tired of hearing this inaccurate, convenient myth.

True, it started in prison, but not in the way you think. It started in prison because inmates weren't (aren't?) allowed to wear belts.

It didn't start in prison at all. It started because people in poor urban areas aka "the hood" often couldn't afford new clothes, so they wore hand-me-downs and thrift store clothes that didn't always fit. So oversized shirts and pants became a fad. If prison attire was a fad, you'd probably see a lot of bright colored jumpers in place of sagging pants.

Back on topic, arresting people for poor fashion sense is dumb. Sagging pants don't make you criminal, they just make you unemployable.
 
This gets the thread on a more constructive track.

I've had two personal experiences with this dynamic and law enforcement officials. One was direct and the other was indirect. I was talking with a parole officer who worked in north Louisiana in a parish or municipality where this was a law.

We were talking about harassing youth one day and he brought up this law and said that it was implemented to stop young black males (his words) who might have gang affiliations but couldn't be pinned for anything else or stopped for any other reason. Looking at the numbers, there was definitely a racial imbalance.

But it wasn't out of line with the other statistical analyses about general population demographics vs. incarcerated demographics and the disparities along racial boundaries.

So it's hard to say whether or not this was specifically a form of harassment, different from other means, or simply another tool used to perpetuate that disproportionality.

The second example was with a group I had worked a bit with in the NY area on youth profiling vis a vis criminality. This team's experience was much more widespread and documented in terms of who was pulled over and when for this reason. The racial disparities once again were evident, but on a greater scale.

It wouldn't be the first time laws were put in place for reasons of harassing kids of color or marginalized kids from other demographics (e.g. goth, homeless) so I think the presence/role of racism is a valid issue within the broader context.

But that doesn't mean the law itself is necessarily racist. It cannot be ruled out and there are other precedents that have had similar impacts, so the question is reasonably begged.

Well of course the law is indeed racist. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. So are you going to question the legislature about it? And would your view even matter? Probably not. It began in prison. We can say prison are predominantly black. That's factual. We can say when these inmates came out, they brought their "inmate demeanor" out with them. Therefore, they brought the "fashion statement" to the streets. Now even though it's predominantly black who we can say instill this notion, there's a % of other races that show it as well. Though it's a smaller scale. There's no denying it. But regardless of race, are you in favor of inmates bringing prison demeanor to the streets? It seems you are to be arguing such a point?
 
Well of course the law is indeed racist. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. So are you going to question the legislature about it? And would your view even matter? Probably not. It began in prison. We can say prison are predominantly black. That's factual. We can say when these inmates came out, they brought their "inmate demeanor" out with them. Therefore, they brought the "fashion statement" to the streets. Now even though it's predominantly black who we can say instill this notion, there's a % of other races that show it as well. Though it's a smaller scale. There's no denying it. But regardless of race, are you in favor of inmates bringing prison demeanor to the streets? It seems you are to be arguing such a point?

what?
 

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