Avengers 4: Endgame - Trailers, excitement, spoiler free movie reactions, discussion (Note: Warning! Now with spoilers, no tags!) (2 Viewers)

[SebaSaint]

It's all very simple. You're either a willing participant of the MCU or not. You're either willing to go to where the directors and writers of the MCU is taking you or you're not. And if you're not, it's because you have expectations for how the characters should be. When those expectations are not met, it's understandable that you'd be upset.

I'll grant that based off the set up, the writers and directors (generally speaking) do a play a role in creating those expectations, but we are so advanced in storytelling/narrative digestion as a society, that creators are trying to do their best to deconstruct and subvert those expectations. A good example is Thor Ragnarok, it deconstructed Thor and rebuilt him into a more funny yet more responsible Kingly Thor. A bad example is The Last Jedi deconstructing Luke Skywalker completely jarring our expectations.

So it all comes down to whether you're willing to go with the director/writer's vision or not. I'm a willing participant... except for M. Night Shymalan destroying Avatar: The Last Airbender... fork that guy.

 

[DaveXA]

Interestingly enough, I watched Venom for the first time a couple of days ago. Funny, but a bit too weird for me. I'd watch a sequel if/when that comes.

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

Why is it frustrating? The injury? The lack of him getting another crack at Thanos?

True Hulk fans think he can't get injured?

Fwiw, I think Hulk's healing abilities are superior to Thanos', so I think Hulk could recover fully from the snap in a fairly short period of time.

If you are a Superman fan, imagine a movie where he couldn't fly. People who wanna be contrarian will act as if they don't understand but it's a really simple concept. The Hulk is known for being green, big, strong, powerful, and has a healing factor on par with or better than Wolverine's. Not only did they nerf him, negate his basic character trait, but he basically got punk'd by Thanos to the point that many were asking if he was afraid to come out. The Russo's or whomever actually had to come out and explain why he refused to come out. Then in the next film, not only does he NOT get a shot at redemption, now he's crippled. It's just stupid.

 

[DaveXA]

If you are a Superman fan, imagine a movie where he couldn't fly. People who wanna be contrarian will act as if they don't understand but it's a really simple concept. The Hulk is known for being green, big, strong, powerful, and has a healing factor on par with or better than Wolverine's. Not only did they nerf him, negate his basic character trait, but he basically got punk'd by Thanos to the point that many were asking if he was afraid to come out. The Russo's or whomever actually had to come out and explain why he refused to come out. Then in the next film, not only does he NOT get a shot at redemption, now he's crippled. It's just stupid.

Ok, all that makes sense. But, in IW it's not hard to see why Hulk refused to come out. He got his butt whipped by Thanos and Hulk completely lost his nerve. It's not all that surprising. Hulk and Banner have always struggled with identity and who's in control. This time Hulk said he wasn't coming out and didn't care what was going on out there. I thought it fit.

Fast forward 5 years, and Banner and Hulk have finally figured out how to coexist, but Hulk still hasn't come all the way back from the old Smash Hulk. I guess it's not too surprising that he's not there yet.

I can understand the snap doing damage, and even after he was 'crippled' he still managed to hold the weight of the building on his shoulders. I believe the damage from the snap will be temporary and he'll be fully recovered in short order.

I also get that both Hulk and Thor wanted their pound of flesh with Thanos, but because this is the end of an era for IM and Cap, the writers let them steal the show. Both Thor and Hulk will have their chances in future films imo.

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

Ok, all that makes sense. But, in IW it's not hard to see why Hulk refused to come out. He got his butt whipped by Thanos and Hulk completely lost his nerve. It's not all that surprising. Hulk and Banner have always struggled with identity and who's in control. This time Hulk said he wasn't coming out and didn't care what was going on out there. I thought it fit.

Fast forward 5 years, and Banner and Hulk have finally figured out how to coexist, but Hulk still hasn't come all the way back from the old Smash Hulk. I guess it's not too surprising that he's not there yet.

I can understand the snap doing damage, and even after he was 'crippled' he still managed to hold the weight of the building on his shoulders. I believe the damage from the snap will be temporary and he'll be fully recovered in short order.

I also get that both Hulk and Thor wanted their pound of flesh with Thanos, but because this is the end of an era for IM and Cap, the writers let them steal the show. Both Thor and Hulk will have their chances in future films imo.

1. I don't think you understood what I wrote. I am saying, the Russo's said the Hulk didn't lose his nerve, but that's the common misconception. He was tired of ONLY being the solution to Banner's problems.
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/infin...son-hulk-wont-come-out-why-we-didnt-see-happy

A lot of people had interpreted that the Hulk was scared of Thanos. The Hulk has had his arse kicked before, and so it wasn’t like the minute he gets his arse kicked he’s going to run and hide. It’s really the notion that the Hulk and Banner have a very dysfunctional relationship, which was explored even further in Thor: Ragnarok. And I think that relationship is starting to strain between the two of them and the Hulk is not interested in playing the hero to Banner anymore," Joe Russo said.

This speaks to how they mishandled the writing. So many people thought EXACTLY as you did. The fact that they had to come out and explain it differently lets you know, it didn't come off correctly.


2. The first article I listed, they said the damage was permanent. Or maybe I misread it.

 

[Saint_Ward]

If you are a Superman fan, imagine a movie where he couldn't fly. People who wanna be contrarian will act as if they don't understand but it's a really simple concept. The Hulk is known for being green, big, strong, powerful, and has a healing factor on par with or better than Wolverine's. Not only did they nerf him, negate his basic character trait, but he basically got punk'd by Thanos to the point that many were asking if he was afraid to come out. The Russo's or whomever actually had to come out and explain why he refused to come out. Then in the next film, not only does he NOT get a shot at redemption, now he's crippled. It's just stupid.

Ok, all that makes sense. But, in IW it's not hard to see why Hulk refused to come out. He got his butt whipped by Thanos and Hulk completely lost his nerve. It's not all that surprising. Hulk and Banner have always struggled with identity and who's in control. This time Hulk said he wasn't coming out and didn't care what was going on out there. I thought it fit.

Fast forward 5 years, and Banner and Hulk have finally figured out how to coexist, but Hulk still hasn't come all the way back from the old Smash Hulk. I guess it's not too surprising that he's not there yet.

I can understand the snap doing damage, and even after he was 'crippled' he still managed to hold the weight of the building on his shoulders. I believe the damage from the snap will be temporary and he'll be fully recovered in short order.

I also get that both Hulk and Thor wanted their pound of flesh with Thanos, but because this is the end of an era for IM and Cap, the writers let them steal the show. Both Thor and Hulk will have their chances in future films imo.

I can't do this all justice, but a few quick thoughts.

They left this a bit too much for the audience to figure out (which means too much opportunity to see it wrong.. like I did). But Hulk was just sick of being tucked away and only used for help. He finally had a taste of being accepted for who he is on Sakaar. That's why he didn't want to leave. He could be him and people loved it vs feared it. The Hulk part was probably mad to be back on Earth, the place that hates him. He just refused to help, because he was tired of being used as a weapon and then locked away.

I originally thought it was about getting beaten so bad. But it wasn't. But, they needed Hulk to say "no, you just want to use me" or something to make the point they really wanted to make.

That's why he says, after 5 years, instead of treating Hulk like a disease, he's part of the cure. To make the two become one. Clearly, that also nerfed Hulk a bit. You just don't see him being that strong. Banner's not much of a fighter as himself.

I think what the Russo's are getting at in that quote, and then when you read the other, is not about the last battle. It's about, now that everything is done after the Funeral.. where does Banner/Hulk go from here? He has lost Nat. He's going to be somewhat damaged from the gauntlet. Now, can he heal physically on his own? Will he find a way to heal physically? The stones are more powerful than anything. Their power could have really killed his arm. Despite healing factors. Maybe Banner needs to go full on rage monster again to fix that?

What they're talking about though, is that the next movie with Hulk can go in some interesting directions, if they want to (maybe already planned?). That character can keep growing. They're just talking about story/character development.

 

[TheRealJRad]

and has a healing factor on par with or better than Wolverine's

I think you may be overestimating how common this knowledge is. I never knew about his healing factor until you mentioned it here. Or maybe I’m underestimating.

But you should really keep in mind, after this nearly killed him, he still managed to hold up a building. He lived through something that flat out killed Tony in his armor. Even Thanos‘ arm was pretty damaged after his first snap. It was a pretty catastrophic power that went through him. And some of these heroes can’t be comic book strong - it’s just too out there.

 

[DaveXA]

1. I don't think you understood what I wrote. I am saying, the Russo's said the Hulk didn't lose his nerve, but that's the common misconception. He was tired of ONLY being the solution to Banner's problems.
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/infin...son-hulk-wont-come-out-why-we-didnt-see-happy


This speaks to how they mishandled the writing. So many people thought EXACTLY as you did. The fact that they had to come out and explain it differently lets you know, it didn't come off correctly.


2. The first article I listed, they said the damage was permanent. Or maybe I misread it.

Thanks for clarifying. That's actually quite helpful.

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

I can't do this all justice, but a few quick thoughts.

They left this a bit too much for the audience to figure out (which means too much opportunity to see it wrong.. like I did). But Hulk was just sick of being tucked away and only used for help. He finally had a taste of being accepted for who he is on Sakaar. That's why he didn't want to leave. He could be him and people loved it vs feared it. The Hulk part was probably mad to be back on Earth, the place that hates him. He just refused to help, because he was tired of being used as a weapon and then locked away.

I originally thought it was about getting beaten so bad. But it wasn't. But, they needed Hulk to say "no, you just want to use me" or something to make the point they really wanted to make.

That's why he says, after 5 years, instead of treating Hulk like a disease, he's part of the cure. To make the two become one. Clearly, that also nerfed Hulk a bit. You just don't see him being that strong. Banner's not much of a fighter as himself.

I think what the Russo's are getting at in that quote, and then when you read the other, is not about the last battle. It's about, now that everything is done after the Funeral.. where does Banner/Hulk go from here? He has lost Nat. He's going to be somewhat damaged from the gauntlet. Now, can he heal physically on his own? Will he find a way to heal physically? The stones are more powerful than anything. Their power could have really killed his arm. Despite healing factors. Maybe Banner needs to go full on rage monster again to fix that?

What they're talking about though, is that the next movie with Hulk can go in some interesting directions, if they want to (maybe already planned?). That character can keep growing. They're just talking about story/character development.

Understood. Good post, bro.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Understood. Good post, bro.

And to be fair, it could have also been about that last battle. I think his "hero's moment" was the snap. He did his task.

I've said it before, I wanted him to get at least one shot in on Thanos, even if it wasn't much. He should have tried. I can live that it didn't happen. I secretly hope there is a deleted scene.

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

I think you may be overestimating how common this knowledge is. I never knew about his healing factor until you mentioned it here. Or maybe I’m underestimating.

But you should really keep in mind, after this nearly killed him, he still managed to hold up a building. He lived through something that flat out killed Tony in his armor. Even Thanos‘ arm was pretty damaged after his first snap. It was a pretty catastrophic power that went through him. And some of these heroes can’t be comic book strong - it’s just too out there.

Whether people know his abilities or not, that's an essential part of his character. Look, I know there are people who just don't get or don't want to get what I'm saying, but if you read the Bible and know the story of Noah, then you watch a biblical movie and Noah constructs a life raft and saves a Pekingese and a goat, it would be upsetting. The character has been pithed. It's botched. In an otherwise perfect setup of over 20 movies, the Russo's botched one of if not THE main Marvel characters.

 

[St. Widge]

If you are a Superman fan, imagine a movie where he couldn't fly.

You mean like the old Superman II movie with Christopher Reeves where he almost has to kneel to Zod?

Yeah, that was probably the best of all the Superman movies because he showed vulnerability and wasn't just an invincible force that smashed everything.

 

[MLU]

Whether people know his abilities or not, that's an essential part of his character. Look, I know there are people who just don't get or don't want to get what I'm saying, but if you read the Bible and know the story of Noah, then you watch a biblical movie and Noah constructs a life raft and saves a Pekingese and a goat, it would be upsetting. The character has been pithed. It's botched. In an otherwise perfect setup of over 20 movies, the Russo's botched one of if not THE main Marvel characters.

Under this standard every MCU film and every character has been botched because none of them are true to the comics. I enjoyed these films a lot more when I stopped comparing MCU characters to Marvel Comic characters.

 

[antipop]

this is fun explanation of the time travel stuff...

obviously heavy spoilers

 

[Complex Kid]

this is fun explanation of the time travel stuff...

obviously heavy spoilers