Ben Watson= Fleener (1 Viewer)

[longtime lurker]

 

[BreesusSaves]

Ben Watson was signed to a 3 year, $4,950,000 contract with the Saints to be a blocking TE compliment to Graham.

Fleener was signed to a 5 year, $36,000,000 contract with the Saints to replace Jimmy Graham.

The reality is expectations are different, period. Watson's emergence was a wonderful and pleasant surprise. He wasn't signed based on being a pass catcher, that was just an added bonus.

Fleener's money says he needs to be making plays, and doing things like going 2 for 8 on receptions when the other team's defensive alignments gives the TE favorable matchups all game is not a good way to get off the bus.

Can he still improve and be a difference maker? Of course. We're two games into a sixteen game season... but as far as first impressions... you can't argue that he's fallen flat on his face.

 

[LombardiGras]

I found this on youtube. Pretty sweet catch by Watson, has Fleener done anything like this in the NFL?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxVF2gUDjpg

3 people gave this post thumbs down but none of them were able to post a clip of Fleener making comparable catches. Pretty telling.

 

[BoNcHiE]

3 people gave this post thumbs down but none of them were able to post a clip of Fleener making comparable catches. Pretty telling.

Because your barometer is dumb.

It's classic moving the goalposts. It's not enough that it's been proven he doesn't have a history of drops, contrary to initial assertions. Now you want highlight reels that show he makes circus catches. To prove what? The argument wasn't that he has incredible, circus hands in the first place. It was that he doesn't have bad hands.

If you don't like the guy's ability, fine. Don't like it. But no one can have a real discussion when the level of evidence has now moved to subjective judging of how incredible a certain catch was vs. whether he has a history of drops or not.

 

[JackT.]

just compared the two tight ends careers in their first seasons. Coby has more yards and touchdowns than Watson at the same stage of their careers. Watson had Brady throwing to him and Fleener had Luck. Watson is a 15 year vet so give Fleener some time.

 

[LombardiGras]

Because your barometer is dumb.

It's classic moving the goalposts. It's not enough that it's been proven he doesn't have a history of drops, contrary to initial assertions. Now you want highlight reels that show he makes circus catches. To prove what? The argument wasn't that he has incredible, circus hands in the first place. It was that he doesn't have bad hands.

If you don't like the guy's ability, fine. Don't like it. But no one can have a real discussion when the level of evidence has now moved to subjective judging of how incredible a certain catch was vs. whether he has a history of drops or not.

You don't get to decide what "the argument" is dude. My argument is that Fleener is nothing special as a tight end. Just because you aren't able to show any highlights indicating special ability does not mean its dumb.

I can find videos of Jimmy Graham, Ben Watson, even Billy Miller making impressive plays. But apparently these type of highlights don't exist for Fleener. I've asked people to link to some highlights of his NFL career to prove me wrong. Nobody has been able to show videos to indicate he has special ability as a tight end.

 

[Nymm]

There's a highlight video for Fleener on Youtube but it's nothing special as far as catches go. They're hitting him in the hands or what is more telling there are others where he slows down to bring it into his gut to catch.

 

[BoNcHiE]

You don't get to decide what "the argument" is dude. My argument is that Fleener is nothing special as a tight end. Just because you aren't able to show any highlights indicating special ability does not mean its dumb.

I can find videos of Jimmy Graham, Ben Watson, even Billy Miller making impressive plays. But apparently these type of highlights don't exist for Fleener. I've asked people to link to some highlights of his NFL career to prove me wrong. Nobody has been able to show videos to indicate he has special ability as a tight end.

No, I do get to decide what I'm going to argue.

I never said he's got incredible hands. And the original argument in this thread was that he has bad hands and a history of drops in various terms. That's what I was responding to. Then you start bringing up highlight reels and whether he's made incredible catches or not.

If you now want to debate highlight reels or the lack there of, go ahead. Someone will take you up on it I'm sure.

 

[LombardiGras]

No, I do get to decide what I'm going to argue.

I never said he's got incredible hands. And the original argument in this thread was that he has bad hands and a history of drops in various terms. That's what I was responding to. Then you start bringing up highlight reels and whether he's made incredible catches or not.

If you now want to debate highlight reels or the lack there of, go ahead. Someone will take you up on it I'm sure.

You don't get to decide what I'm going to argue. Just because one poster said something in the beginning of a thread doesn't preclude someone else from making their own argument. The OP doesn't even say anything about Fleener's hands, it criticizes his physicality. You're saying I moved the goalposts, that is incorrect. I was never using your goalpost to begin with. I've made my own argument about Fleener, and your inability to provide a rebuttal does not reflect on the merits of my argument.

There's a highlight video for Fleener on Youtube but it's nothing special as far as catches go. They're hitting him in the hands or what is more telling there are others where he slows down to bring it into his gut to catch.

That's what I've seen as well.

 

[BoNcHiE]

You don't get to decide what I'm going to argue. Just because one poster said something in the beginning of a thread doesn't preclude someone else from making their own argument. The OP doesn't even say anything about Fleener's hands, it criticizes his physicality. You're saying I moved the goalposts, that is incorrect. I was never using your goalpost to begin with. I've made my own argument about Fleener, and your inability to provide a rebuttal does not reflect on the merits of my argument.

You responded to me in a post I wrote to someone else who said he had bad hands. In my post I cited his drop numbers specifically.

You are the one who then wanted to argue about highlight reels and whether he has made incredible catches. Why would I need to rebut something I wasn't even arguing in the first place? And I didn't even respond until you wanted to know why you got so much neg-rep.

I can't prove a negative in which all possible evidence doesn't even exist for me to sort through. I do not have video of every Fleener catch. For all I know, his best hands catch ever was on a 6 yard out that didn't get put in the highlights.

I've watched some of his youtube highlights in the past. He gets open. He has a pretty low drop rate. That in and of itself is a desirable ability. If that's not enough for you, then don't like him. Pronounce him soft (that sounds familiar). Give up on him after 2 games. Whatever.

 

[insidejob]

Here are 4 catches he made that were pretty damn good. Apparently, he just doesn't have any "highlight videos" made for him. Lots of our guys wouldn't either if we didn't have such dedicated fans with media skills.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/f_eAaWcaRiU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wk 11 Can't-Miss Play: Fantastic Fleener - NFL Videos

Saints Coby Fleener makes a nice sideline catch - NFL Videos

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/54VfbyvWCUE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[DaveXA]

He has a few nice catches in the "Welcome to the Saints" highlights. The right sideline catch against the Pats was really good. He'll be fine.

 

[lapaz]

I just watched the game, and there were only 2 drops. The first is on the opening drive, and it would've been a really good catch, but I think he lost concentration with the DB nearly tipping it. He should've caught it, and I think a good receiver would generally catch that. The second was on a short throw that he could've secured by protecting it with his body, but he let the DB knock it out. On another, if he had come to the ball, he could've gotten there before Cassillas. On another, he took too long to turn his head to look for the ball, but Drew may have thrown it a bit early due to pressure. The other couple were Drew's fault. The thing is that Coby should be consistently getting better separation from LBs and he needs to box out better. If he isn't already doing that at this stage in his career, it is tough to learn that now, but I'm still hopeful.