Bobby Hebert had a career 12-0 record against AFC Teams by 1991 as a Saint Quarterback (2 Viewers)

[Kramer]

This is something a lot of people don't know. I was watching a YouTube video of the 1991 Saints playing against the Oakland Raiders on Monday Night Football. The Raiders had never lost on MNF. We won 27-0. Towards the end of the game, Frank Gifford was comparing Walsh to Hebert since Hebert was making his return after being out with an injury for several weeks with them loosing all the games in the 4th quarter under Walsh as qb. He put up a stat showing Bobby as a starter was undefeated 12-0 against AFC teams which was unheard of. I thought that was pretty impressive.

 

[St. Geezy]

I remember in my youth this being a big deal for the franchise as a whole (not just Bobby). The team itself seemed to never lose to AFC teams, until one day they did, in 1990, against the Oilers during Bobby’s holdout.

I was absolutely stunned. The AFC had been our whipping boys for so long. The streak had to have been 15+ games I think, or at least it felt that way, and it started around the time I first started watching football as a very young kid in 1987, so the thought of us losing to an AFC team was a complete unheard of, foreign concept to me.

 

[St. Geezy]

This is something a lot of people don't know. I was watching a YouTube video of the 1991 Saints playing against the Oakland Raiders on Monday Night Football. The Raiders had never lost on MNF. We won 27-0. Towards the end of the game, Frank Gifford was comparing Walsh to Hebert since Hebert was making his return after being out with an injury for several weeks with them loosing in the 4th quarter under Walsh. He put up a stat showing Bobby as a starter was undefeated 12-0 against AFC teams which was unheard of. I thought that was pretty impressive.

Watching this video, it reminded me of a lot…people used to talk bad about Bobby and say we only won because of our great defense and despite his play, but it sure seemed like we lost a lot whenever he wasn’t playing, whether due to injury or his holdout year.

He wasn’t the greatest QB, but he sure seemed to be an important part of what we did, like a glue that held it all together for us.

 

[Kramer]

Watching this video, it reminded me of a lot…people used to talk bad about Bobby and say we only won because of our great defense and despite his play, but it sure seemed like we lost a lot whenever he wasn’t playing, whether due to injury or his holdout year.

He wasn’t the greatest QB, but he sure seemed to be an important part of what we did, like a glue that held it all together for us.

I think is was either 1991 or 92 when Bobby caught his own pass and ran for positive yardage.

 

[St. Geezy]

I think is was either 1991 or 92 when Bobby caught his own pass and ran for positive yardage.

Yeah I vaguely recall that. I think it was the year after the holdout.

Speaking of, in today’s context, how crazy is it that a guy of Bobby friggin’ Hebert’s caliber held out for an entire year in hindsight?!

 

[football]

Yeah I noticed that during my young years. But the 49ers was our only Achilles heel

 

[HouseCall]

The NFC dominated the AFC back then - much in the way you see the shift to AFC dominance now with the Chiefs.

The Niners forced everyone in the NFC in the 80s and early 90s to adapt or die. That effort to capture or at best keep pace with the Niners led to defensively dominant teams like the Giants, the Bears, the Cowboys, the Skins and the Saints.

The AFC was seen as finesse and were typically dispatched by the more physical NFC teams.

 

[tjharris]

That Steve Walsh trade was horrific. The Saints front office was bad in those days. Funny thing was it was way better than when Mecom Jr. was the owner.

 

[HouseCall]

That Steve Walsh trade was horrific. The Saints front office was bad in those days. Funny thing was it was way better than when Mecom Jr. was the owner.

They got stuck between a rock and a hard place unfortunately. Hebert wanted money and held out - so we had a super bowl defense and nobody to run the offense as Fourcade proved to be a 3 game flash in the pan at the end of 89’.

It was unfortunate timing. Hebert had leverage and Finks didn’t bend. We ended up with a QB that wasn’t much better than Fourcade in 1990 and went 8-8 and to the playoffs on the back of the defense.

Hebert came back the next season and we won our first division. Could have been a year earlier - maybe.

 

[Saintman2884]

Yeah I vaguely recall that. I think it was the year after the holdout.

Speaking of, in today’s context, how crazy is it that a guy of Bobby friggin’ Hebert’s caliber held out for an entire year in hindsight?!

In an era of limited pre-1993, "Plan B" NFL free agency, where NFL teams and GM's controlled a lot more of the cards, negotiating standards, before a general salary cap was agreed to, no, its not so uncommon that even a good, NFL starting QB had a year-long holdout because Finks and Mora thought Hebert was relatively replacable. Despite his USFL success, and some decent success as Saints QB from 1985-89, was Hebert really what you'd describe back then as a Pro-Bowler, a game-breaking type of guy like Montana, Elway, Warren Moon, or Jim Kelly? No, not even close. Going into the 1990 season, Finks and Mora believed they could play "hardball" by ignoring Hebert's demands, bring in another QB to compete and this guy (Walsh) wasnt an NFL-capable QB and he failed miserably?

Finks and to a certain extent, Mora didn't understand or know how to deal with the upcoming monster named unrestricted free agency because a lot of their power and control and dominance would be reduced and Finks' playing hard-ball was one of the few bad decisions he ever made as Saints GM, but if you more closely examine Finks history of dealing and negotiating with Pro-Bowl QB's in Minnesota, in Chicago he was just as happy with a modest, mediocre QB then a Pro-Bowler? In 1979 preseason as Bears GM, he turned down an offer to trade for Oakland Raiders QB Ken Stabler, a 4-time Pro-Bowl SB-winner, by saying "we're happy with what we have" I mean, WTF?

 

[Saintman2884]

They got stuck between a rock and a hard place unfortunately. Hebert wanted money and held out - so we had a super bowl defense and nobody to run the offense as Fourcade proved to be a 3 game flash in the pan at the end of 89’.

It was unfortunate timing. Hebert had leverage and Finks didn’t bend. We ended up with a QB that wasn’t much better than Fourcade in 1990 and went 8-8 and to the playoffs on the back of the defense.

Hebert came back the next season and we won our first division. Could have been a year earlier - maybe.

If Hebert had been a 2-3x Pro-Bowler, he might've gotten his demands but while he certainly had his moments and while he was perhaps was the best QB for Mora's overly-conservative offense, compared to Randall Cunningham, Montana, Simms, or even Jim Everett, Hebert was seen as a very good, "game-managing", Trent Dilfer-like QB. Decent, maybe good at his very best, but not great.

Plus, if you examine Finks past with other NFL teams as GM, he didnt view QB as an absolute " centerpiece " necessary to guide a potential perennial playoff team. The only HOF QB he had was Fran Tarkenton and he didnt select or draft him, Grant wanted to trade for him in early 1972, and Finks went along with it. He refused a 1979 pre-season trade offer for Kenny Stabler, he refused to draft Joe Montana in the 1979 Draft even though his scouts, Bears HC and his assistants and a few Bears players, like Walter Payton, were pleading for him to do it.

Plus, player movements in the late 80's/early 90's was lot more limited with "Plan B" free agency, and no general salary cap. Owners and GM's had a lot more power, control and ability to play hard-ball even with QB's, WR's or star players with multiple Pro Bowls. Look at the John Jefferson case with San Diego contract fallout in the 1981 season, one of the NFL's best WR's at the time wanted more money and was willing to hold out all season long if necessary. San Diego Chargers owner Gene Klein instead ships him off for high draft picks to a team then-perennial loser, Green Bay Packers, where Jefferson got his money, but his career numbers never were the same even in a pass-happy Offense under Lynn Dickey. One big problem already was that the early 80's Packers had their top, Pro-Bowl WR in James Lofton and a Pro-Bowl TE in Paul Coffman, how do you fit a guy like Jefferson into that role plus Bart Starr, the HC, was no HC or offensive-minded genius like Don Coryell, either?


John Jefferson got the worst end of both deals in the end, except for maybe getting his new contract requests.

A similar process happened to Eric Dickerson early during the 1987 season with L.A. Rams except Dickerson sort of made it work better and he had a friendly mentor helping him out in Ron Meyer, his SMU college HC.

 

[Kramer]

In an era of limited pre-1993, "Plan B" NFL free agency, where NFL teams and GM's controlled a lot more of the cards, negotiating standards, before a general salary cap was agreed to, no, its not so uncommon that even a good, NFL starting QB had a year-long holdout because Finks and Mora thought Hebert was relatively replacable. Despite his USFL success, and some decent success as Saints QB from 1985-89, was Hebert really what you'd describe back then as a Pro-Bowler, a game-breaking type of guy like Montana, Elway, Warren Moon, or Jim Kelly? No, not even close. Going into the 1990 season, Finks and Mora believed they could play "hardball" by ignoring Hebert's demands, bring in another QB to compete and this guy (Walsh) wasnt an NFL-capable QB and he failed miserably?

Finks and to a certain extent, Mora didn't understand or know how to deal with the upcoming monster named unrestricted free agency because a lot of their power and control and dominance would be reduced and Finks' playing hard-ball was one of the few bad decisions he ever made as Saints GM, but if you more closely examine Finks history of dealing and negotiating with Pro-Bowl QB's in Minnesota, in Chicago he was just as happy with a modest, mediocre QB then a Pro-Bowler? In 1979 preseason as Bears GM, he turned down an offer to trade for Oakland Raiders QB Ken Stabler, a 4-time Pro-Bowl SB-winner, by saying "we're happy with what we have" I mean, WTF?

If Hebert had been a 2-3x Pro-Bowler, he might've gotten his demands but while he certainly had his moments and while he was perhaps was the best QB for Mora's overly-conservative offense, compared to Randall Cunningham, Montana, Simms, or even Jim Everett, Hebert was seen as a very good, "game-managing", Trent Dilfer-like QB. Decent, maybe good at his very best, but not great.

Plus, if you examine Finks past with other NFL teams as GM, he didnt view QB as an absolute " centerpiece " necessary to guide a potential perennial playoff team. The only HOF QB he had was Fran Tarkenton and he didnt select or draft him, Grant wanted to trade for him in early 1972, and Finks went along with it. He refused a 1979 pre-season trade offer for Kenny Stabler, he refused to draft Joe Montana in the 1979 Draft even though his scouts, Bears HC and his assistants and a few Bears players, like Walter Payton, were pleading for him to do it.

In the YouTube video Frank Gifford goes on to say Al Davis wanted to get Hebert during his holdout offering some great draft picks but Finks refused his offer.

 

[faceman]

The only HOF Qb that Bobby doesn't have a winning record against is Joe Montana. He has a winning
record against Steve Young,Dan Marino,Jim Kelly,and John Elway. This was bought up on WWL radio
once. Bobby said having a losing record against Montana was nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[HouseCall]

Bobby said having a losing record against Montana was nothing to be ashamed of.

Sure…. But when you consider that Montana was in the same division - it sort of seems like that’s the only W/L record that really matters.

 

[webster]

Watching this video, it reminded me of a lot…people used to talk bad about Bobby and say we only won because of our great defense and despite his play, but it sure seemed like we lost a lot whenever he wasn’t playing, whether due to injury or his holdout year.

He wasn’t the greatest QB, but he sure seemed to be an important part of what we did, like a glue that held it all together for us.

He was a really good qb and tough.