Brees when targeting (2 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

On the bright side, the Fleener contract was set up so that the team has an easy out in the 2017 offseason. Can designate him a June 1 cut and gain 6.4 million cap space against only 1.6 million dead money. So we're not stuck with him long-term if he doesn't work out.

I didn't know that. Good bit of info. Based on what we've seen so far, a June 1 cut is a foregone conclusion. He's gonna have to improve a ton to even justify half his contract.

Loomis making sure he has an out with Fleener's contract certainly changes how I look at the signing. Smart move. Looks like 2017 we'll either have a much improved TE or over $6 million cap space freed up.

 

[CountWhoDat]

I think it was clear from the jump that we were overpaying Fleener to be a top producer in this offense, but all would be well because just like everyone else, "Brees would make him better."

There are limits. Ask anyone who's had Fleener on their fantasy team in recent years, (*raises hand*) and they'll tell you he has a way of disappointing his supporters. He may have been the most obvious "reach" signing of all our of recent screw-ups.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

Walt looks like nailed this signing unfortunately

Which is why the contract is really for 2 years 9 million with little hit if we cut him after the 2nd year. The structure of the contract protects us from Fleener if he doesn't show up like we hope he can.

 

[LombardiGras]

Watson’s catch percentage was at 58.6% before New Orleans, and was 65% during his time with the Saints. I’d say that was a marked improvement in consistency.



And yet you, on multiple occasions, credit Brees and Brees alone for Graham’s success. You can’t have it both ways.



Who’s catch percentage went up consistently during his time in New Orleans, the highest in his career. Playing with the Saints made him more efficient. Billy Miller and Dave Thomas were much better than Fleener judging by what we've seen so far.



He has never been under 54% on his catch percentage. He had 3 drops in 2015, 5 in 2014, 2 in 2013, and 3 in 2012. His worst ever drop/target percentage was 6.3% during his rookie year. By comparison, in 2015, Ben Watson had a 4.6% drop average, a full percentage pint higher than Fleener’s 3.6%. ( Just for fun and full disclosure, Julian Edelman had 9%, Jimmy Graham had 2.4%, and Gronk had 0.8%.)


It’s possible that you end up being correct. But his stats don’t support your argument about his hands, or his ability to improve, and two games is to early to make a declarative decision either way.


No you can’t.



Different set of situations. And different players. Not everyone adjusts as quickly to playing in an entirely different system than you did for nine years.


I don’t watch sports to see a moneyball type product. That’s boring. Try watching the A’s if you don’t believe me. Or what the Browns currently have going.

You are really bending over backwards to justify Fleener's poor play, but none of this explains why he is so ineffective. A Billy Miller or Dave Thomas caliber player can easily out produce Fleener in the Saints offense.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

I'll say it again. Crawley did everything perfect on that play including going for the int. The only problem was his hand position. You have to flip your palms out like a good receiver in that situation. That allows you to go get the ball away from Cruz and at the very least still bat it down if you can't corral it. I even saw Glen motioning with his hands on the sidelines.

It's like how PJ did that int against Houston in the end zone. Palms out, arms extended, receiver has no chance.

You have to use your hands either way so go for the interception.

 

[Fujitaboutit]

Who had the best year of his entire career last season? That would be Ben Watson. Why was Jimmy Graham able to develop out of a basketball playing third round pick into one of the premier pass catchers in the league, and has not even come close to replicating those numbers on a different, contending team?

What team resurrected Jeremy Shockey? What team got double the production out of Dave Thomas than he ever had in New England? What team consistently finds a way to get production out of low pedigreed tight ends?

The Saints also added a pretty good tight end coach as an assistant in Dan Campbell. Coby Fleener has all the tools, but wasn't really featured well in terms of his skill set in Pep Hamilton's offense. It had and still has a chance to be a difference making move for this offense, and, factoring in those elements, was a very sensible risk to take to improve a position on the team.

So why on earth would that be considered an outlandish or silly or stupid move to make? And why would we declare it to be a complete and abject failure after two games? Pretty defeatist attitude if you ask me.

if we have all this success developing tight ends, it is moronic to spend 7 million for the chance to develop another one. for 7 million you should be getting a plus player. this is further compounded by how tight we are against the cap and our dire need for a talent influx on defense and along the oline. we also went out and gave josh hill 3 million

 

[crosswatt]

Not every player can be pro-bowl material, but the thing I don't get about Fleener is when he was arguing with Brees about where he was supposed to line up.

It's pretty obvious at this point that Brees knows what he's talking about given his career and time-in-service with the Saints. What was Fleener thinking when Brees told him to line up properly and he thought, "Nah, I'm good, it's obviously Brees that doesn't know the play so I'll just argue my point" until Brees had to walk away and take the delay of game?

Only the most arrogant or bull-headed person could possibly think the problem was on Brees' end.

Even if Brees was somehow wrong, he's the QB. If the QB tells you to line up on the 50 and run figure 8's around the logo you run figure 8's around the logo.

Well, he did go to Stanford, and I think they know what they're talking about when they speak out there.



That was pretty surreal, but that type of independence could be a good thing if channeled correctly. But yeah. In that moment it was just stupid.

You are really bending over backwards to justify Fleener's poor play, but none of this explains why he is so ineffective. A Billy Miller or Dave Thomas caliber player can easily out produce Fleener in the Saints offense.

You know what? Find a single non-sourceable and factual point in my post. I'm not attempting to justify anything, or doing any verbal or statistical gymnastics here. I'm just pointing out that statements aren't always accurate just because one person takes the time to type them out. Adder had some specific criticisms that I don't feel bear out when viewed through the numbers, so I posted said numbers. You're free to find some tangible data to challenge that assertion if you wish to.

And I'm not in anyway attempting to support the current product on the field. That has been dreadful. But Fleener's talent coming in was, in my opinion, well worth the risk to take.

if we have all this success developing tight ends, it is moronic to spend 7 million for the chance to develop another one. for 7 million you should be getting a plus player. this is further compounded by how tight we are against the cap and our dire need for a talent influx on defense and along the oline. we also went out and gave josh hill 3 million

It is akin to winning a single race with an average car, and then trying to upgrade the vehicle for a more consistent opportunity to visit the winner's circle. It doesn't always work out the way you planned, but that doesn't mean it was a bad move to make. Fleener has the ability to be a top five receiving option in this league. it hasn't worked out yet in Indy, but the Saints think that they can unleash the weapon with better results than the Colts' did.

In two games, it hasn't even been close to expectations, by the fans, team, and most likely by Fleener himself. That doesn't mean that it won't, or that it wasn't worth the risk taken to exponentially upgrade the position. Whether it ends up doing so or not is anyone's guess at this point, and it honestly doesn't look promising so far.

 

[DaveXA]

if we have all this success developing tight ends, it is moronic to spend 7 million for the chance to develop another one. for 7 million you should be getting a plus player. this is further compounded by how tight we are against the cap and our dire need for a talent influx on defense and along the oline. we also went out and gave josh hill 3 million

Just remember, if Fleener doesn't pan out, he can be cut and save almost $6.5 million on the salary cap in 2017, so it ain't as bad as it looks on the surface. We can't get back this year's money, but if it's essentially a one year contract, then I can't complain too much.

 

[SAINTSFAN]

Just remember, if Fleener doesn't pan out, he can be cut and save almost $6.5 million on the salary cap in 2017, so it ain't as bad as it looks on the surface. We can't get back this year's money, but if it's essentially a one year contract, then I can't complain too much.

I don't think that is correct. I believe his base salary for next year fully guaranteed. At best, it is a 2 year/$14.4 million contract. If he is cut next season, we would have a $12.2 million cap hit. If he were a post June 1 cut, we would have a $7.4 million cap hit in 2017 and $4.8 million in 2018.

 

[DaveXA]

On the bright side, the Fleener contract was set up so that the team has an easy out in the 2017 offseason. Can designate him a June 1 cut and gain 6.4 million cap space against only 1.6 million dead money. So we're not stuck with him long-term if he doesn't work out.

Can you source this please? In order to respond the previous poster's comment about whether Fleener's contract is guaranteed.

 

[DaveXA]

I don't think that is correct. I believe his base salary for next year fully guaranteed. At best, it is a 2 year/$14.4 million contract. If he is cut next season, we would have a $12.2 million cap hit. If he were a post June 1 cut, we would have a $7.4 million cap hit in 2017 and $4.8 million in 2018.

Source this as well. I'd like to get a clear answer to this issue.

 

[SAINTSFAN]

Here is the contract-

Coby Fleener Contract Details, Salary Cap Breakdowns, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac

 

[DaveXA]

Here is the contract-

Coby Fleener Contract Details, Salary Cap Breakdowns, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac

Yeah, I'm not seeing how they can get to a $1.6 million cap hit in 2017 base on being cut June 1. Something doesn't add up. Maybe there's a clause in the contract regarding specifically being on the roster post June 1?

 

[RetroMcBananaFace]

I phrased it poorly, we can cut him in the offseason AFTER the 2017 season, before the 2018 season.

New Orleans Saints Salary Cap Calculator | Over The Cap

click the 2018 tab, then go down to Fleener's name and click the drop-down for the cut options if you'd like to see for yourself.

But the long and short of it is, we're only stuck with him for this season and next.

 

[DaveXA]

I phrased it poorly, we can cut him in the offseason AFTER the 2017 season, before the 2018 season.

New Orleans Saints Salary Cap Calculator | Over The Cap

click the 2018 tab, then go down to Fleener's name and click the drop-down for the cut options if you'd like to see for yourself.

But the long and short of it is, we're only stuck with him for this season and next.

Thanks for clarifying. It's all good. Let's just hope he makes a big improvement cuz getting nothing out of this would be brutal.