[Bumped to discuss resulting legal actions] Elementary school shooting in Connecticut. (Edit/Update - 26 reported killed, many of them children) (1 Viewer)

[Dragon]

To outlaw guns would take changing the Bill of Rights which would require a 2/3 ratification by congress. That's never going to happen. Guns would be around for another 200 years anyway. Stringent expensive license requirement just to own a gun will never fly. Gun ownership is a right just liked voting. It's in the same "Bill of Rights". Has to follow closely to the same rights and privileges as voting, like it or not! With those ground rules, lets try to find ways to limit casualties when some nut enters a school. In the latest case and in columbine, it wasn't a trained warrior, it was just young idiots who might have been stopped by anyone with basic firearm training.

And yet the right to vote has been and continue to be, limited by laws not a part of the constitution.

 

[krushing]

And yet the right to vote has been and continue to be, limited by laws not a part of the constitution.

What laws limit the right to vote of US citizens? You can vote without even showing an ID. You can vote on multiple days. Only a inept idiot or a felon would have trouble voting. You don't even have to be able to read or know English to vote. I'll gladly accept the same regulations on my gun ownership.

 

[Dragon]

What laws limit the right to vote of US citizens? You can vote without even showing an ID. You can vote on multiple days. Only a inept idiot or a felon would have trouble voting. You don't even have to be able to read or know English to vote. I'll gladly accept the same regulations on my gun ownership.

That is not correct - there has been several stateswhich has limited the kind of Id's valid on order to vote. Some have even tried to require Id's which require a fee to aquire.

Another question - do homeless people have the right to vote ?

 

[Semper]

That is not correct - there has been several stateswhich has limited the kind of Id's valid on order to vote. Some have even tried to require Id's which require a fee to aquire.

Another question - do homeless people have the right to vote ?

Wisconsin voted to require an ID, and make them free but then it was too inconvenient for people to go get one. Funny thing though, to get state benefits if your old or young requires an ID but no one is shouting about how unfair that is...

 

[RazorOye]

I do not want more arms in school - whether we are talking arming students or arming teachers or arming security guards or arming returning veterans.

This assumption that an armed officer equals a safer campus ignores an entire spectrum of educational issues.

It's a flat assumption based on a Bennett-esque "common sense" approach that's been around since the early 80s and has done nothing to improve education. And he's recently resurrected this nonsense in an editorial that was more alarmist than it was considerate of all that he was arguing for.

I don't agree with the "well, I don't want to arm teachers because i don't want more guns around my kids. By the way, can we hire a bunch more armed officers or volunteers or veterans or _________________"

And it's a rare point of agreement that I have with Gov. Chris Christie when he says that schools should not be adding more armed people to their campuses.

There's not much that he has said about education (which has been mostly corporatization) that I agree with, because it doesn't resonate with what educators know and have studied about education.

But he's right about this:

I don't necessarily think having an armed guard outside every classroom is conducive to a positive learning environment. You don’t want to make this an armed camp for kids. I don’t think that’s a positive example for children. We should be able to figure out other ways to enhance safety.

Hiring more armed people - whether students or 21 Jump Street undercover tweens or Blackwater operatives or whatever - isn't the answer. And it detracts from the discussion and resources that can actually have an impact. It's among the laziest and least imaginative implementations I can think of when it comes to school security.

What we lack - above many other things - when it comes to education is vision. This isn't visionary.

We need to be re-working the paradigm. And that includes these flat assumptions that this would make schools safer or better for kids.

 

[DesertKajun]

I would prefer they fence in the schools and have a checkpoint with a guard. At the very least a shooter would have to deal with the guard armed or not then the school could have warning to lock down. Won't prevent an issue but surely the results wouldn't be as bad allowing a response time for cops. And always have a cop close by.

Second we need more virtual schools. Would be nice for us to create virtual classrooms going forward and avoid this all together. Also is green since less traffic with people taking kids to school.

 

[krushing]

I would prefer they fence in the schools and have a checkpoint with a guard. At the very least a shooter would have to deal with the guard armed or not then the school could have warning to lock down. Won't prevent an issue but surely the results wouldn't be as bad allowing a response time for cops. And always have a cop close by.

Second we need more virtual schools. Would be nice for us to create virtual classrooms going forward and avoid this all together. Also is green since less traffic with people taking kids to school.

I'd rather take some risks then treat schools like prisons. Perps would just turn toward churches and shopping centers anyway.

 

[Semper]

I would prefer they fence in the schools and have a checkpoint with a guard. At the very least a shooter would have to deal with the guard armed or not then the school could have warning to lock down. Won't prevent an issue but surely the results wouldn't be as bad allowing a response time for cops. And always have a cop close by.

Second we need more virtual schools. Would be nice for us to create virtual classrooms going forward and avoid this all together. Also is green since less traffic with people taking kids to school.

A virtual classroom is a nice idea, but I think kids need to interact with other kids.

 

[St. Geezy]

You gun nuts are ridiculous. Yeah, let's send our kids to a prison camp every day for school. Glad you guys aren't making the decisions for my three kids' learning environments.

This is a situation where the gun nut saying "killers will kill" actually SHOULD be applied. You arm schools, the killers will just move on to another area, like a mall, or a movie theatre.

I just don't think the answer to the gun problem is adding more guns.

 

[Dragon]

A virtual classroom is a nice idea, but I think kids need to interact with other kids.

Humans needs to interact with other humans....

The one common denominator for almost every mass murder who snaps, is estrangement from the society in which they live. They are outsiders looking in.

 

[Semper]

You gun nuts are ridiculous. Yeah, let's send our kids to a prison camp every day for school. Glad you guys aren't making the decisions for my three kids' learning environments.

I resent your labeling me a gun nut, and I also resent the personal attack. If you disagree with someone I don't think it is necessary to start calling names because they don't agree with your stance.
If they decide to put armed guards in schools and you don't like it you're always welcome to home school your children or send them to a private school that does not have armed guards.

 

[St. Geezy]

I resent your labeling me a gun nut, and I also resent the personal attack. If you disagree with someone I don't think it is necessary to start calling names because they don't agree with your stance.
If they decide to put armed guards in schools and you don't like it you're always welcome to home school your children or send them to a private school that does not have armed guards.

Well sorry, but when I hear the suggestions I am hearing from people on how to solve this "crisis," I have no other choice but to think they're coming from crazy people.

Like I said though, I have no need to worry about this because there are much more qualified people making the decisions in this country that would never put our children in such a harsh, prison camp environment.

 

[RazorOye]

A virtual classroom is a nice idea, but I think kids need to interact with other kids.

I just finished two courses that were entirely online - as a student. I'd done a bit of distance/virtual/e-learning before in limited contexts but this was the first were it was entirely online.

It lacked. I say that as a teacher and as a student. The interface was a bit clunky and, had it been better, there are things that would have been improved. BUt overall, it did not approach the efficiency and learning in an actual classroom.

As a teacher, I had difficulties responding to students in real-time in these environments before. These were graduate level students, I can only imagine how compounded the issues would be with primary or secondary students. Kids with special needs. Kids who need differentiated instruction. Being able to effectively see what a student is having trouble with. One on one level working is difficult. Small group instruction - which is often tied to best practices - is hindered considerably. It's not efficient at all. If that's the only option, I can understand. Or if it's part of a course, I could understand.

But when people advocate for this entirely virtual experience, they seem to be missing the dynamics in a learning situation which is constantly changing and has feedback that goes both ways. That's where the teaching comes in. Otherwise, why not just pop in an instructional videotape?

It's hardly a solution. We aren't there yet and I don't mean to discount it - I've done a bit of work in ed tech. There's potential, but from a learning standpoint it's not efficient or effective across the board. it has its benefits in specific contexts.

As a student, it was frustrating. It was convenient, because I could access it anywhere I had a connection and at any time. But aside from that, it was behind classroom learning in just about every way. Everything took much longer and what I could get in a 3 hour/week class took at least twice that - the university recommended that you set aside 12 hours per week for each course, which is normally achieved in 3 hours of class and a couple of hours of work outside the classroom. Exchanges weren't verbal, instead they were mediated over a message board format. I've never done so much clicking in my life to try and follow a single topic that would have taken 15 minutes in class in terms of what we covered.

There are things that are tailor made for this environment and I think we need to embrace the digital learning environment.

But to think we can just plug a bunch of kids in, from home, and expect the same type of teaching and learning to occur is naive and short sighted.

This is all aside from the consideration of the digital divide, too. The risk with these e-classrooms is an access and equity issue that gets compounded when mediated over an online/broadband connection. So "achievement gaps" become an issue too.

Like I said, there's a lot of potential - but we need to be smart in how we adapt and adopt and what we spend our time and resources on.

And the US can use a better communications technology infrastructure, for rural populations when it comes to geography and cost when it comes to other contexts.

We've come a long way. But we've a longer way to go, I think

And this is all aside from the socializing aspect that Dragon brought up.

 

[SharonT]

I have no need to worry about this because there are much more qualified people making the decisions in this country that would never put our children in such a harsh, prison camp environment.

This is a scary, scary assumption on your part. There are politicians, not educators, making decisions at all levels of government, and they don't always care to talk to teachers, administrators, or school board members.

Follow the money, and see who stands to gain financially. The State of Louisiana has recently committed an unknown amount of money to totally untested, online "classes." Any public school student who wants to take a class "that is not offered through their district" can sign up for free. Sounds good, until you read the fine print. For every class, money is taken OUT of that student's public school, and sent to whoever signed up to provide online classes. Could be a teacher answering questions, probably not. Almost definitely an out-of-state entity. Probably a cookie cutter formula that would be torture for the child. We'll pay, and then pay again when students graduate with great test scores, but little life skills.

 

[kevin from buffalo]

This is a scary, scary assumption on your part. There are politicians, not educators, making decisions at all levels of government, and they don't always care to talk to teachers, administrators, or school board members.

Follow the money, and see who stands to gain financially. The State of Louisiana has recently committed an unknown amount of money to totally untested, online "classes." Any public school student who wants to take a class "that is not offered through their district" can sign up for free. Sounds good, until you read the fine print. For every class, money is taken OUT of that student's public school, and sent to whoever signed up to provide online classes. Could be a teacher answering questions, probably not. Almost definitely an out-of-state entity. Probably a cookie cutter formula that would be torture for the child. We'll pay, and then pay again when students graduate with great test scores, but little life skills.

boom baby..same thing still goes on up here..and you can connect with connecticut.

what saddens me if the fear that we have now..the little ones worry about going to school..for more reasons than the bullying...and shootings. its about the clothes they have on and such..

i have no reason to say that home schooling is a bad idea..but..as you said..kids need life skills...be around their own..humans that are there age..

again..americana is overkill..we think too much..we worry to much and we spend too much trying to please..

america needs to get back to basics..and once again...

schools...get a few paid security folks with rock solid backgrounds to patrol the innocnet campus/elementary life..and let the teachers educate. this is the way it has too be now.

p.s.-i shared a drink last night and then again earlier today with my neighbor..kids home for x-mas vacation..guess what..they cried "bored". new toys..the games on tv. we had 10 inches of snow..but a fort and a trail leading to that fort all made of snow was too much of a task for those two kids too adapt too.. "it's too cold".."i don't want to get dressed".."i don't want to get wet"

i feel so sorry for the teachers these days..kids these days for the most part ..they are lazy,unfaithful and not respectful.

im glad to say my nug did well if life so far..he is 24..he still says "yes sir" and "no thank you"

it is what it is..