Can a player actually be a "coach killer"? (1 Viewer)

[superchuck500]

It just depends on how you look at the situation. AB became Haslett's killer because he would flash moments of greatness that Haslett would fixate on and ignore his normal tendencies to be overly inconsistant. I don't think what Mora or anyone is saying is that Vick is out to kill his coach's career, but rather that the coaches run into trouble when they stick with a player who will show flashes of brilliance rather than go with someone who will just be consistent and not lose the game for their team.

I think that's what Mora meant by his statement, that Vick makes jaw-dropping plays that make Mora Jr and the Atlanta coaching staff want to give him the ball all the time, and at the same time overlook the fact that he just isn't consistent enough to be a leader of their team.

Yeah, I understand that point for sure. I guess its just the idea that it is now the player's fault and not the coach's that bothers me. If the coach sticks with the player when he's not getting results, that's the coach's problem. I just don't see how it is any other way. Thus, the player doesn't kill the coach, the coach's own shortcomings kill the coach.

And about Mora- I personally think that Jr.'s decision to take a timeout after the first play of our posession that yielded the hail mary touchdown was vastly more damaging to the Falcons' chance to win that game than anything Vick did.

 

[OldTimeGamer1966]

I disagree in the "nfl complexity" argument. It comes down to execution of plays. When Aaron was here, he clearly could not read through his assigned progressions. I think Vick has the same problem in "reading" his progressions. But with Vick, he has the once-in-a-blue moon athletic ability to mask that problem by running. Problem with that is you alienate your WR's to the point that they begin to think " hey the ball isnt coming my way".

Now the HC has a delimma. You have a $100 mil QB who has all the talent in the world. You have pressure from top down to fans to expolit that talent, but that talent is not suited for the "NFL GAME' and the NFL GAME is not ready to change. ( same reason the option/wishbone play does not work) What is a coach to do? Mora tried the "pocket passer" tech. with Vick and it failed. Now they reverted back to the run first, pass second tech. and teams now know how to defense it. As a HC you have no other options. Ergo, coach killer.

Nice take on the subject. Moras hands are tied,it's Blank and whomever the GM is that gave Vick all that cash.

 

[LSSpam]

Players are only coach-killers when the coach sucks.

 

[LSSpam]

If Brees went down, and Payton played him even though he was hurt, and we lost, I doubt the Payton would lose the team like Haslett did with Aaron. The team seems to have our QB's back through thick and thin, which could not be said for the AB/Haslett Saints. Aaron's lack of leadership skills led to a very hair-trigger mutiny when we collapsed in '02.

That's correct. And to add (you implied), the team seems to have our Head Coaches back as well. Which was not true with Haslett.

Only crappy coaches let players kill their careers. You've got underlying problems if an individual is poisoning your organization.

 

[Loose Cannon]

That's correct. And to add (you implied), the team seems to have our Head Coaches back as well. Which was not true with Haslett.

Only crappy coaches let players kill their careers. You've got underlying problems if an individual is poisoning your organization.

I don't think Andy Reid is a crappy coach. TO didn't kill his career, but he caused major setbacks for that team.

 

[LSSpam]

I don't think Andy Reid is a crappy coach. TO didn't kill his career, but he caused major setbacks for that team.

Correct. Andy Reid isn't a crappy coach. And so TO didn't kill his career (even though TO is the classic model for a "coach killer").

I didn't say players can't disrupt a team, I said no individual player can kill a coaches career. Other things factor in, mainly the coach himself.

Vick is a "coach killer" because Jim Mora Jr is a joke. Vick maybe the spark but the underlying cause is Junior.

 

[keepoursaints]

Yeah, I understand that point for sure. I guess its just the idea that it is now the player's fault and not the coach's that bothers me. If the coach sticks with the player when he's not getting results, that's the coach's problem. I just don't see how it is any other way. Thus, the player doesn't kill the coach, the coach's own shortcomings kill the coach.

And about Mora- I personally think that Jr.'s decision to take a timeout after the first play of our posession that yielded the hail mary touchdown was vastly more damaging to the Falcons' chance to win that game than anything Vick did.

I agree completely with you there, that's why I had such a problem with Haslett. It's one thing to stick with an inconsitent player when you don't have anyone else capable of getting in there and getting the job done. Clearly that wasn't the case here with Jake and I don't think it's the case in Atlanta with Schaub, so again it comes down to a coach's stubbornness towards a player resulting in that coach losing respect of his team and his job.

 

[BoNcHiE]

I don't think Andy Reid is a crappy coach. TO didn't kill his career, but he caused major setbacks for that team.

TO is a different animal. Parcells seems to be handling him fine and hes quietly (oddly enough) having another great season with the cowboys.

 

[Paul]

Vick is a "coach killer" because Jim Mora Jr is a joke. Vick maybe the spark but the underlying cause is Junior.

DING-DING-DING!

 

[SaintJ]

I don't think Andy Reid is a crappy coach. TO didn't kill his career, but he caused major setbacks for that team.

That is correct.

He didn't completely divide the locker room, but in an off-season that's always tough, when you've just finally gotten to the Super Bowl but lost, and need to somehow saddle up and get back there, Owens did his best to create such a poisonous atmosphere, just to try to get released or traded to get a new deal, that it ended up being a big distraction.

Sure, it's easy to say that a coach should just cut the guy and be done with it, but they did all they could do just to keep him out of the locker room for conduct unbecoming. The only reason Owens isn't a coach killer this year is that (1) he's not the best WR on the team this year and he's dropping too many passes to have any credibility and (2) the Cowboys struck gold with Romo and they're winning.

If Owens gets on a hot streak but they don't win the Super Bowl, expect more negative behavior starting, oh, about three days after the season.

 

[efil4stnias]

Players are only coach-killers when the coach sucks.

i disagree. The same goes for players who suck. The problem lies in who ultimatley controls the team. If you ( as a GM or Owner ) have tens of millions tied up in one player, that player "will" fit into the coaches scheme, even if it means the demise of the coach. Could you imagine the fallout from a GM or Owner stating "we made a mistake in evaluating this guys talent" and paid him $100,000,000? Coach will be the fall guy. EVERY TIME. ( see Dan Reeves )

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Correct. Andy Reid isn't a crappy coach. And so TO didn't kill his career (even though TO is the classic model for a "coach killer").

I didn't say players can't disrupt a team, I said no individual player can kill a coaches career. Other things factor in, mainly the coach himself.

Vick is a "coach killer" because Jim Mora Jr is a joke. Vick maybe the spark but the underlying cause is Junior.

Yeah, but what if the coach doesn't have the latitude to have the players he wants on the team, or even to bench said player? There's no way Arthur Blank would let Mora start anyone other than Vick when he is healthy. Then I think its accurate to claim that a player can become a coach killer.

 

[Loose Cannon]

Good thread BTW

 

[LSSpam]

Yeah, but what if the coach doesn't have the latitude to have the players he wants on the team, or even to bench said player? There's no way Arthur Blank would let Mora start anyone other than Vick when he is healthy. Then I think its accurate to claim that a player can become a coach killer.

Well in that case the owner is the coach killer

Yes, you're right. Sometimes coaches don't have the latitude nessecary. But players never have any control over the situation other then what is ceded to them. Coaches, GMs, and Owners control who gets pay checks, for how long, and whether they play or not. Any player who can "kill" a coaches career requires the complacency of one or all of those named (ie coaches, GMs, owners).

 

[efil4stnias]

the media doesnt help either. They will "run up" a players value LOOOONG before the draft, and if you remember, Vick was the man who was going to " change the game". Dont look now, the game is still the same. Good D, balanced O, no turnovers= WIN. The best example is Sundays game. Vick ran for 166 YDS!!!!! that is insane for a QB. But he did it between the 20's. They lost.