Canuckredux breaks down the top 10 v.2.0 (1 Viewer)

[d3vanj]

His knee injury was caused by an illegal chop block. He was much healthier in the National Title game, and it showed.

I haven't seen enough of Ellis to compare the two, but a majority of the 'draft experts' have Dorsey as one of the top two or three talents on the board. I've seen Ellis as high as 5, but not much higher than that.

Time will tell, but I really don't see Dorsey being a bust. Sure, it may be a homer-esque statement, but it's my humble opinion.



As long as we get some solid help on Defense, I'll be happy. Watching the Giants in the Super Bowl win w/ basically the same talent they had last year makes me think we could really only be a few key cogs (& a healthy Deuce) away from the unfathomable.

No way in hell Dorsey is a bust. I don't care for LSU at all, but Dorsey being a bust...not happening. I'd be ecstatic with Ellis or Dorsey.

 

[canuckredux]

Ellis and Dorsey are different types of players. Dorsey is the guy that will take on 2 or 3 players to close off running lanes, free up the pass rush and give the LBs less junk to have to work through to make tackles. Something like Pat Williams or Marcus Stroud. Ellis, on the other hand, is a 1-gap disrupter. He doesn't free up the others like Dorsey does, but he makes plays on his own. He goes in for tackles for loss and sacks. He gets into the backfield more than Dorsey does. He's kind of like Warren Sapp or La'Roi Glover in that sense. He does take on the double and triple teams and he does it very well, but maybe not on the level that Dorsey does. I'm not an expert, it's just what I've seen. What makes Ellis special is that added playmaking dimension. I think that both would be good for our team. Both would draw extra attention from the O-Line; they'd both free up Grant and Smith. I think that with Dorsey on the line, our total sacks and pressures from Grant and Smith would be higher, but I think that with Ellis on the line, their numbers may not be as high, but our team's total sacks and pressures would be higher. Either one would be great for our team and I'd be thrilled if one of them fell to us.

 

[Gideon]

Ellis and Dorsey are different types of players. Dorsey is the guy that will take on 2 or 3 players to close off running lanes, free up the pass rush and give the LBs less junk to have to work through to make tackles. Something like Pat Williams or Marcus Stroud. Ellis, on the other hand, is a 1-gap disrupter. He doesn't free up the others like Dorsey does, but he makes plays on his own. He goes in for tackles for loss and sacks. He gets into the backfield more than Dorsey does. He's kind of like Warren Sapp or La'Roi Glover in that sense. He does take on the double and triple teams and he does it very well, but maybe not on the level that Dorsey does. I'm not an expert, it's just what I've seen. What makes Ellis special is that added playmaking dimension. I think that both would be good for our team. Both would draw extra attention from the O-Line; they'd both free up Grant and Smith. I think that with Dorsey on the line, our total sacks and pressures from Grant and Smith would be higher, but I think that with Ellis on the line, their numbers may not be as high, but our team's total sacks and pressures would be higher. Either one would be great for our team and I'd be thrilled if one of them fell to us.

Totally agree with this. Thanks for the hard work Cannuck.

To be honest, while I can't disagree too heavily with your logic (except maybe Cincy taking Harvey over both DT's) it doesn't seem too much of a reach to see 1 of these guys falling to us at 10, and I think that would be the shortest walk to the podium for a team picking at 10 in history

 

[GrayMatter78]

Dorsey is not a player like Pat Williams or Marcus Stroud. The only time he weighed over 300 lbs was at the beginning of the season and played well below that during the season. He is strong and while he was doubled a lot; it was because he couldn't be blocked with one guy in college so that was the only alternative.

Contrary to REALCHRISM's observation that he gets tired at the end of games, Dorsey has been known at his best at the end of games ie Florida and South Carolina come to mind quickly.

He is 3 tech not a nose tackle and will be a disruptor on the DLine for whomever drafts him.

Just an FYI, I like Ellis too but people should not confuse what Dorsey is. Dorsey and Ellis are much more alike than you think. They are both strong, have great hand technique, explosive and can pass the rusher.

 

[basilisk]

from what i've seen, and i haven't seen a whole lot of ellis, dorsey is the stronger and ellis the quicker (i'm talking degree here, they're both strong & they're both quick)... i don't know which i'd take, but it's a problem i'd like to have at #10

 

[canuckredux]

Dorsey is not a player like Pat Williams or Marcus Stroud. The only time he weighed over 300 lbs was at the beginning of the season and played well below that during the season. He is strong and while he was doubled a lot; it was because he couldn't be blocked with one guy in college so that was the only alternative.

Contrary to REALCHRISM's observation that he gets tired at the end of games, Dorsey has been known at his best at the end of games ie Florida and South Carolina come to mind quickly.

He is 3 tech not a nose tackle and will be a disruptor on the DLine for whomever drafts him.

Just an FYI, I like Ellis too but people should not confuse what Dorsey is. Dorsey and Ellis are much more alike than you think. They are both strong, have great hand technique, explosive and can pass the rusher.

Is he passing the rusher en-route to the hot dog stand?

Thanks for the info. I don't think he's that different from Stroud, but that's only based on what I've seen. He's not as tall, but both of them plug the run and rush the passer very well. I wouldn't classify Stroud as a NT, Pat Williams, yes, but that's simply the differing systems they run. Stroud/Henderson and Pat Williams/Kevin Williams are both phenomenal DT combos, but they're not similar. In Minnesota, you have a clear nose/3-tech combo. In Jacksonville, Stroud and Henderson are a bit different. They're not a pair of NTs and they're not your typical 3-tech DTs. I was just trying to find a suitable hybrid to classify Dorsey. I do think that Dorsey will be a better asset in the run game, whereas Ellis will be stronger in the passing game, but both will be the anchors of their D lines for a long time and have Pro Bowl written all over them.

 

[DownWithDisease]

I want Corey Williams from Green Bay in free-agency...

Then, if Dorsey or Ellis is sitting there at # 10, you grab them too!

LB and CB are both deep in this draft, and we should be able to get starting caliber players at each of those positions in the 2nd or 3rd round. LB looks really deep.

Corey Williams in FA

Dorsey slips to 10 and we grab him with the quickness.

Curtis Lofton in the 2nd.

Dwight Lowery, CB, San Jose State, in the 3rd.

 

[d3vanj]

I want Corey Williams from Green Bay in free-agency...

Then, if Dorsey or Ellis is sitting there at # 10, you grab them too!

LB and CB are both deep in this draft, and we should be able to get starting caliber players at each of those positions in the 2nd or 3rd round. LB looks really deep.

Corey Williams in FA

Dorsey slips to 10 and we grab him with the quickness.

Curtis Lofton in the 2nd.

Dwight Lowery, CB, San Jose State, in the 3rd.

oh god.. i would have a heart attack if all that happened

 

[Dave]

I would take Ellis because he doesn't have any past injuries. I know Dorsey didn't miss a game, but his knee could come to be a bothering issue in the future. Why wouldn't you take someone with no history of injury on the same level as someone who has a knee problem? (Not saying the problem is lingering, or big, just saying..it could be)

Sedrick Ellis:

2006: He tore cartilage in his right knee prior to the Nebraska game and had arthroscopic surgery, sidelining him for 3 games

2003: Ellis redshirted as a freshman defensive tackle in 2003, his first year at USC. He suffered a left ankle fracture in 2003 fall practice, played briefly against BYU and then had midseason surgery, forcing him to miss the rest of the 2003 season (he was allowed to redshirt because of the early injury).
http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3286694

 

[d3vanj]

Sedrick Ellis:

2006: He tore cartilage in his right knee prior to the Nebraska game and had arthroscopic surgery, sidelining him for 3 games

2003: Ellis redshirted as a freshman defensive tackle in 2003, his first year at USC. He suffered a left ankle fracture in 2003 fall practice, played briefly against BYU and then had midseason surgery, forcing him to miss the rest of the 2003 season (he was allowed to redshirt because of the early injury).
http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3286694

wow...I had no clue. GIVE ME DORSEY!!


thanks for the info

 

[StChadwick]

I do think that Dorsey will be a better asset in the run game, whereas Ellis will be stronger in the passing game

OK so Ellis then

 

[Dave]

10. New Orleans

Offence: 4
Passing: 3
Rushing: 28

Defence: 26
Passing: 30
Rushing: 13

The candidates: Glenn Dorsey, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Keith Rivers, Dan Connor, DeSean Jackson, Mike Jenkins, Kenny Phillips

The pick: Sedrick Ellis, DT, USC

How is it that 2 elite talents like Sedrick Ellis and Glenn Dorsey, could possibly fall as far as #10? It’s really quite simple: The hierarchy of premium positions goes as follows: QB, LT, Pass-Rusher, CB. DTs have a high bust-potential, as evidenced by guys like the heralded 2003 class of Jonathan Sullivan, Dwayne Robertson and Jimmy Kennedy. Ryan Sims and Gerard Warren also flopped. Also of note: The last time 2 DTs were taken in the top-10: 3 straight years, 2001-2003. However, one of those DTs in 2001 was Richard Seymour, who was drafted to play DE. You’d have to go back all they way to 1994 to see that again. Since that run on DTs which produced the flops mentioned above, not a single DT has been drafted in the top 9. Amobi Okoye, Tommie Harris, Haloti Ngata, Vince Wilfork: All drafted 10th or later. This year, Ellis and Dorsey are 2 of the best DTs we’ve seen in years, but they don’t really fit many of the teams’ schemes. They’re too short to play DE in a 3-4 and too light to play the nose. Miami, NYJ, NE, Balti all play 3-4 and Cincy is rumoured to be making the switch. If they start to slide past that 2-5 slot, occupied by the 4-3-base Rams, Falcons, Raiders, Chiefs, and it’s very possible, given they all have needs at premium positions, then one or both of them could end up falling right into our lap. It IS a big “if”, however, and they are certainly top-5 talents.

Very well thought out thread and I'm glad that you have come around to my argument(that you recently dismissed) that either Dorsey or Ellis could fall to #10 based on the 4-5 teams that run 3-4 defenses and how Ellis and Dorsey fit better in the 4-3 rather than the 3-4.
http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60127

It's 3 teams in the top-10 (Miami, NYJ and New England). Cincy is RUMOURED to be going to a 3-4, and even then it's still speculative. Although he is a natural 3-technique, he could also play DE in a 3-4, like Richard Seymour, who was a DT in college and became a DE for the Pats. Also, the Raiders and Chiefs have huge needs at DT; their run defense is just atrocious. Derrick Harvey? COME ON! I'm a big USC fan; I love Ellis. I'd love to see him fall to us, but I just don't see it happening. IF he were to fall to 8, there's a possibility that we could trade with Balty, will have a different target than Cincy and us, and won't want Cincy to get him, but even then that's still not an idea I want to flirt with.

It's not unthinkable, but it IS absurd.

 

[Death Incarnate]

You really can't go wrong with either. I think more people love Dorsey here simply because he is more familiar. But they are both solid. I actually believe that Ellis is the better pass rusher of the two. They both play with excellent leverage. The other thing that I like about Ellis is that he is well-conditioned and does not wear down as easily as Dorsey does throughout the course of a game. Dorsey is the ultimate team leader and a guy that can dominate you at the point of attack. Again, they are both going to be great players. The fact that Ed Orgeron is familiar with Ellis could give him the edge over Dorsey. Then again, our scouts could prefer Dorsey. You never know. But if we did pass Dorsey for Ellis, I wouldn't be upset. Now, if we passed Dorsey for a someone else, I would be upset.

i have watched every game Dorsey played this year and don't remember him getting "worn down" at the end of games unless he was hurt. I distinctly remember seeing him jumping up and down doing jumping jacks in the 4th quarter of at least a couple games.:dunno: