Cardinals potentially interested in Chris Ivory (1 Viewer)

[Proximo]

Here's the deal: Ingram is not going anywhere.

Ivory is a RFA, who we can acquire draft picks in exchange for.

We have 5 picks this year--we need more, and we are stacked at RB. Trade him.

 

[St. Widge]

Julius Jones was terrible but I wanted you to say it. He actually averaged 4 yards per carry with the Saints, better than Ingram has done in either of his two seasons. Funny you bring up the Seattle game though, he averaged 3.9 yards per carry in that game. The same Ingram averaged in 2011, the same Ingram averaged in 2012 and the Ingram's career average. At least Jones had 100 all purpose yards in that game, something Ingram hasn't done once in his career. Jones also had 2 TDs that game, something Ingram hasn't done once in his career.

The problem is that Julius Jones wasn't just some scrub. He was a guy who had a decent career with Dallas before we got him. And, he was also a guy who had played with Seattle that year and knew their defensive playbook which likely gave him a bit of an advantage over them. And, the two games we played Seattle that year were by far his best games of the season and for a long time before that.

But, lets say that Ingram is no better than Julius Jones. I'm not saying Ingram is or every will be a bit better than average or average back. Is that really a problem? I mean sure, you would rather not spend a 1st round pick on that, but why the hell would you want to just outright cut him when there is room on the team for Ivory, Ingram, Sproles and Thomas?

Ignore the picks we spent on him because they are irrelevant at this point. The only question left is does he have a role on this team? The answer is yes, he eats up carries that Ivory can't take because he is fragile, doesn't fumble much and is solid in blitz pick up. Now, is it possible we will find a late round RB or a rookie free agent that can do those things cheaper? Sure, and if we do, I'm sure Payton won't hesitate to let Ingram go the way he did with Pittman and others. But, at this point, that guy is not on the roster and it would be dumb to cut Ingram when you don't have too and you don't have a replacement for him. Because, at this point, while Ivory has shown to be the far better runner, he has not shown the ability necessary to pick up the blitz, stay healthy for an entire season or be an asset in the passing game. Maybe he shows that he can do that in training camp or in the OTA's, but until he does, it would be dumb to cut Ingram loose.

 

[St. Widge]

The position needs to be redefined thats for sure..its all muttered with PT, Ingram, Sproles and Ivory all wanted to make an impact...you cant have a 4 deep backfield, it really only makes sense to have a 2 deep backfield, we argue about who is better when they are all talented, the problem is who do we commit too...we cant hold on to these 4 guys because we are scared of what happened 3 years ago...injuries happen and that was the story of the 2010 season..not a sign of things to come..we panicked with the Ingram pick, we obviously dont have a clear plan for him we just threw him in there with the rest of the backs...as insurance for each other...make a decision of who the lead back...I hope Payton changes that about the offense while he's making changes on drastic changes on D.

As Spam mentioned earlier in the thread, I think that Payton would rather have that two back rotation the way he did when we had Bush and Deuce, but at this point, no back has really stepped up to fill that Deuce role. Ivory has been great running the ball when he has played, but he gets hurt too often to be relied on and he is nowhere near the blocker or pass catcher that Deuce was. I think they drafted Ingram thinking he could fill that role, but he obviously hasn't done so yet. I just hope that either Ivory, Ingram or someone else can step in and do it sometime soon. Because the team could certainly use the offense to have a power running game that can be relied on late to control the ball and run the clock so that we don't have to count on the defense to stop teams at the end of games. We had this when the team made it to the NFC Championship Game with Deuce and we had it with Mike Bell when we won the Super Bowl. Although, Bell, like Ivory, was limited in the role he could fill which is why you still needed Thomas and Ingram.

 

[MarkIngramfan16]

honestly there is not much to debate about.... ivory is the black sheep of the group you cant do much with him because of his durabiltity issues he may be good for a 2-3 game stretch if were lucky so lets let another team spend a low round pick on him that well use him along with another rb that way he will get his shot and help his career last longer

 

[NawlinSaints]

Wish we could keep him but I don't see us getting rid of any of the other RBs

 

[St. Widge]

Wish we could keep him but I don't see us getting rid of any of the other RBs

The truth is that very few RFA's end up changing teams. Teams usually have a pretty good idea what their value is and place that value on them. And, as had been said many times in this thread, no team is likely to give up a 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick for any RB short of a few really good RBs. Payton and Loomis don't really seem to value draft picks as much as fans do so I don't see a late round pick enticing them into letting Ivory go. And, while Ivory has shown flashes of being very good, he has also shown that he is very injury prone and would be a risk for a team to give up a decent pick for.

I could easily see the team putting the right of first refusal tend on him at $1.323 million and I can't see anyone offering more than that. They might even put the 2nd round $2.023 million tender on him and I can't see anyone paying that and giving up a 2nd round pick for a potentially great, but often injured back. Teams will think they can get a similar, if not better, player in the draft in the second or third round and pay them less money.

I mean, in the grand scheme of the cap, $2 million really isn't all that much and it's only about $1.3 million over the vet minimum. Especially when we stand to save a huge amount when Smith and Vilma take pay cuts or are cut.

 

[SaintBrad]

Well, actually we'll see.

If we make a push to retain Chris Ivory, that's a vote of no-confidence in Ingram.

No its not. Its a vote of fear that we may end up with injuries again. You gotta remember that injuries to all our RB's in 2010 caused us HUGE problems and was the cost of quite a few turnovers.

The only vote of no confidence of Ivory over Ingram, is when Ivory is getting touches and Ingram isn't. Lately, its been a lot of Ingram getting touches while Ivory isn't even active due to injury or roster adjustments. Heck, it took a Sproles injury just to get Ivory dressed.

 

[Chopper Man]

No its not. Its a vote of fear that we may end up with injuries again. You gotta remember that injuries to all our RB's in 2010 caused us HUGE problems and was the cost of quite a few turnovers.

The only vote of no confidence of Ivory over Ingram, is when Ivory is getting touches and Ingram isn't. Lately, its been a lot of Ingram getting touches while Ivory isn't even active due to injury or roster adjustments. Heck, it took a Sproles injury just to get Ivory dressed.

This

 

[bclemms]

The problem is that Julius Jones wasn't just some scrub. He was a guy who had a decent career with Dallas before we got him. And, he was also a guy who had played with Seattle that year and knew their defensive playbook which likely gave him a bit of an advantage over them. And, the two games we played Seattle that year were by far his best games of the season and for a long time before that.

He had a super mediocre career in Dallas and Seattle. This is why we could pick him up so cheap. This is also why after playing for us he never did anything in the NFL. As for the two best games of the season coming against Seattle, the first game he had 4 carries for 4 yards and 2 catches for 8 yards. He was worthless. The first game against Seattle Ivory went on a killing spree. He had some of the worst blocking possible and he mowed down Seattle defenders one at a time. Despite Ivory getting 23 carries and 99 yards in that first game it remains as one of the best running games I've seen from a Saint in history. He brutalized the Seattle defense and if not for Ivory we don't come close to winning that game.

I didn't use the Seattle game as an example for how good Jones played that season, you used it as an example why we shouldn't pick up a guy like Jones if Ivory goes down.

But, lets say that Ingram is no better than Julius Jones. I'm not saying Ingram is or every will be a bit better than average or average back. Is that really a problem?

Come on man, you gotta realize you are kidding yourself after re-reading this. Hell yeah it is a problem if we keep an average back because of draft status over a back like Ivory.

Ignore the picks we spent on him because they are irrelevant at this point.

I'm over the picks. We can't get them back so no use crying over spilled mile. At the same time we shouldn't keep a back just because we spent those picks on him.

The only question left is does he have a role on this team? The answer is yes, he eats up carries that Ivory can't take because he is fragile, doesn't fumble much and is solid in blitz pick up.

Yes, he has a role as a depth player that should come in if everyone else is hurt. Shouldn't be any more than that. If we have to choose between the two backs then we should choose Ivory with a quickness and not look back. Like I said before you can find an average back mid season if needed.

Also Ingram has 1 career lost fumble, Ivory has 2. Far from being a factor.

while Ivory has shown to be the far better runner, he has not shown the ability necessary to pick up the blitz, stay healthy for an entire season or be an asset in the passing game. Maybe he shows that he can do that in training camp or in the OTA's, but until he does, it would be dumb to cut Ingram loose.

As for injury goes.
Mark Ingram has missed 6 games in the past two seasons due to injury.
Ivory has missed 6 games in the past two seasons due to injury.

Can you point to a couple examples of him missing blocks or not being a good pass blocker or can you show me where the coaches have said he struggles picking up protection schemes? This is all speculation from fans because they think there has to be a reason the far superior runner isn't getting more touches. The fact is neither Ingram nor Ivory have been used in obvious passing situations nor do they need to be when we have guys like PT and Sproles who are on this team because of those situations.



In all these Ivory/Ingram debates I haven't seen a single person favoring Ingram bring numbers of any sort to the table. It is all about if's and but's.

 

[Saints 4 life]

as for injury goes.
Mark ingram has missed 6 games in the past two seasons due to injury.
Ivory has missed 6 games in the past two seasons due to injury.

This!!!

 

[ETWhoDat]

He had a super mediocre career in Dallas and Seattle. This is why we could pick him up so cheap. This is also why after playing for us he never did anything in the NFL. As for the two best games of the season coming against Seattle, the first game he had 4 carries for 4 yards and 2 catches for 8 yards. He was worthless. The first game against Seattle Ivory went on a killing spree. He had some of the worst blocking possible and he mowed down Seattle defenders one at a time. Despite Ivory getting 23 carries and 99 yards in that first game it remains as one of the best running games I've seen from a Saint in history. He brutalized the Seattle defense and if not for Ivory we don't come close to winning that game.

I didn't use the Seattle game as an example for how good Jones played that season, you used it as an example why we shouldn't pick up a guy like Jones if Ivory goes down.




Come on man, you gotta realize you are kidding yourself after re-reading this. Hell yeah it is a problem if we keep an average back because of draft status over a back like Ivory.


I'm over the picks. We can't get them back so no use crying over spilled mile. At the same time we shouldn't keep a back just because we spent those picks on him.


Yes, he has a role as a depth player that should come in if everyone else is hurt. Shouldn't be any more than that. If we have to choose between the two backs then we should choose Ivory with a quickness and not look back. Like I said before you can find an average back mid season if needed.

Also Ingram has 1 career lost fumble, Ivory has 2. Far from being a factor.



As for injury goes.
Mark Ingram has missed 6 games in the past two seasons due to injury.
Ivory has missed 6 games in the past two seasons due to injury.

Can you point to a couple examples of him missing blocks or not being a good pass blocker or can you show me where the coaches have said he struggles picking up protection schemes? This is all speculation from fans because they think there has to be a reason the far superior runner isn't getting more touches. The fact is neither Ingram nor Ivory have been used in obvious passing situations nor do they need to be when we have guys like PT and Sproles who are on this team because of those situations.



In all these Ivory/Ingram debates I haven't seen a single person favoring Ingram bring numbers of any sort to the table. It is all about if's and but's.

Here you go. I posted this about a month ago to try and get someone to give me statistical evidence of why Ingram is better than Ivory. Haven't go anything yet. I'll try again though.

Mark Ingram has career long carries of 31 and 35 yards.
Chris Ivory has career long carries of 55, 35, and 56.
Also worth noting, in Ivory's rookie year he led the LEAGUE in broken tackles per rush attempt at 19.7%. Is that good?

Obviously, the injury history wih these guys are very similar given that this has already been quoted about Ingram not coming into the season in shape because of injury. For the sake of an argument, I'm going to forget about the fact that you guys say that Ingram is a better passing game back yet you also go onto say defenses stack the box when he's in the game. So we have here two guys that are basically put into the same situations. Forget for a second that mark ingram has more favorable conditions given that he IS featured more in the passing game and DOES get more touches per game. pretend they run under equal circumstances so to speak. Let me break this down mathematically. In his career, Ingram has played in 26 games receiving 278 carries. That equates to 10.7 carries/game. Ivory on the other hand, has received 256 carries in 24 games which equates to a magical 10.7 carries per game. Let's pretend these "rhythm runners" are allowed to get the ball 22 times per game. With Ivory's CAREER YPC of 5.1 this would equal 112 yards per game and 1,792 yards in a season. Ingram, having a career BEST YPC of 3.9 would average 86 yards per game and 1,373 yards per season. Mark Ingram has accumulated a grand total of 58 first downs on 278 carries meaning that he gets a first down every 4.8 carries. Ivory, has accumulated 72 first downs on 256 carries equating to a first down every 3.5 carries. But let's not stop there! In Chris Ivory's career, he's had 10 runs of 20 yards or more. That equates to a 20 yard run every 26 carries. Ingram, however, has had carries of 20+ yards only 6 times while receiving more carries. This means that mark Ingram only busts a 20+ yarder every 46 carries! Wow! Mark Ingram needs to carry the ball 20 more times than ivory to make similar production numbers. After doing all the math, you guys are right!!! We just have to give Ingram the ball more!

 

[Bala Lowkz]

Why do you people still debate this.

 

[Saints 4 life]

Why do you people still debate this.

You people?
<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/thats racist/SilentsAreGolden/thats_racist.gif?o=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/SilentsAreGolden/thats_racist.gif" border="0"></a>

 

[ETWhoDat]

This

I think you're missing the premise of this argument. Why would we start two running backs that fill the same role. Obviously, the coaches chose Ingram to be active over Ivory. We're providing arguments to why that doesn't make sense since ivory is better at that role than Ingram.

 

[bclemms]

Even people in Thailand know it isn't a good idea to trade Ivory.

Thailand to Cease Legal Ivory Trade - WSJ.com