Carney vs. Hartley (1 Viewer)

TCUDan

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No real technical discussion here... not much that way in terms of kickers. But I just wanted to throw in my two cents in light of Hartley's looming reinstatement.

I think Hartley is a good kicker. He has a strong leg and did an excellent job after coming in late last season. But if I were the Saints brass, I would cut him and hang onto John Carney.

Yes, there is a danger of letting Hartley walk out the door. He'll be at the top of a lot of teams lists (Seahawks?) and could catch on somewhere else permanently. Even though he was curiously shaky this preseason, I think he has a bright future in the NFL and has the talent to stay in the league for a while. That said, he WAS shaky in the preseason. His previous body of work is only a few games from last season. What he was/is likely going through is just a phase of accuracy struggles, but the Saints seem to have lightning in a bottle right now and shouldn't take any unnecessary risks with regard to the place kicking game... which is looking pretty solid/consistent.

You know what you have in John Carney. He went to the Pro Bowl last season at the age of 46 or 47... and only after he was signed by the Giants due to an injury. He's obviously not a long term solution, but he is very accurate and consistent kicking from inside the 40. Sean Payton has already admitted that it was a mistake to let him walk out the door after the '06 season. I say don't make that mistake again.

The only merit I see in keeping Hartley over Carney is long-term. The focus needs to be on this season. Again... it's just the kicker, not the QB, so I won't be up in arms either way. But John has earned his spot, IMO, for at least one more season (and it'd be nice to have him be a part of Saints history after the years he's put in to this organization).
 

chrisandersen

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Hope he's been working out. Is he allowed to practice with the team during suspension?
 

IceHot

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I love Carney and would be happy if we could win him a ring.

But I am not sure he can still boot the long ones, and we may get into a game situation that depends on the long kick late in the game.

As of right now we have never had to play without the lead. So I cant say how the game plan would unfold if we had to.

Granted we have a great punter, and maybe that decreases the number of situations where we would go for a long Figgy.

So I am sure it will be a tough call.
 

Cuozzo67

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Keep both Carney and Hartley this season.
 

Hanau Eepe Saint

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FO may have a trick up their sleeve though..
Positives: Tall, with an adequate build and long legs. ... Good extension on field goal attempts. ... .. etc... ... Improved his accuracy as a kicker in 2008, making 5-of-6 from 40-49 yards. Made 3-of-4 FGAs from 50-plus yards in 2007 and didn't attempt a kick from that distance in '08.
 

AceTW

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Waiting for the local Carney haters to see this one.............

It's kinda sad really, that with all the talent available on this team, right now, there have to be those that "need" to find things so massively wrong that they require days of argument. *shrug*
 

26ISTHEMAN

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This is the way I see it. Carney is money from inside 45. That doesn't mean he can't make longer FG's, but when he lines up for mid-range to shorter ones, I have all the confidence in the world that the ball is going thru the uprights. Personally, I don't have the same level of confidence in Hartley at this point. Now you throw in Morstead, who has been lights out on kickoffs, so much so that even if Hartley comes back, you have to assume that Morstead will keep doing KO's. So where does that leave Hartley? The only reason you keep him over Carney is to improve your chances on making the occasional long field goal, and IMO that is not reason enough to bring him back. Yes, there may be a time when we need a strong legged kicker to make a 50+ yarder, but the way SP calls games, the only way he's taking a chance on a FG that long is if it's 4th and long, and those scenarios are not that common.

I don't think they keep 2 kickers again. This is our year, so I say keep Carney, but it'll be interesting to see what they do after Sunday.
 

bobad

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The only merit I see in keeping Hartley over Carney is long-term. The focus needs to be on this season.


It's a no-win situation.

We keep Carney, our kicking game has no future. If we cut him our present kicking game is not assured. This move will tell us a lot about the way Payton thinks. I think we saw a preview of that when he elected to go for it on 4th down instead of trying a 47 yard field goal. To me, that was a sign that Hartley will be back.

Personally, cutting Carney would worry me, and carry at least a risk of bad karma. I rather have Hartley in the long run. :idunno:

I'm not really worried about Karney's feelings. He's a pro and he knows why we signed him.
 

SaintsFan83

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Our Kicking Game isnt assured with Carney. Everyone complains how Hartley hangs his left, Just look at Carney's FGs and PATS, They've all be ugly and many of them have been to the left. We had to go for it on 4th down this past sunday because Carney couldn't make the kick... much like he had to many times in 06. Hartley can make 50 yard FGs... Carney cant. We have the luxury of a great offense that rarely needs FG's but I'll take distance and youth over someone's career that is coming to its end. Hartley is going to miss a few but that is the cost of gaining experience.
 

Saint Kamara

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Chicago 16, New Orleans 14. Late 3rd quarter NFC CG 2006.

49 yard attempt and we elect to go with the "long kicker" and he misses it miserably.

Saints go on to lose.

I don't want to relive that scenario. Keep the kid. And he must be our only kicker. No split duties. That won't any good for Hartley's psychie.
 

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i have a on going issue with carney..since that jags game (the bayou relay game) where he missed the extra point... ive called most of his missed fgs.....and im kinda scared that maybe when we are in a most win game (playoffs) he might fall to the pressure of a game winning fg and miss...i dont know maybe im over thinking this lol
 
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Keep both as long as reasonable. Carney will be picked up by someone else if he gets cut.

It's interesting how Giants held on to Tynes all year while John kicked, thinking Tynes was their kicker for the future, but he's back to his headgames and missing short ones. The game is very mental, and John is solid on that. But he is 45, and it won't last forever.

Ironically, Carney is in much better shape now than he was as a young kicker.
 

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TCUDan

TCUDan

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i have a on going issue with carney..since that jags game (the bayou relay game) where he missed the extra point... ive called most of his missed fgs.....and im kinda scared that maybe when we are in a most win game (playoffs) he might fall to the pressure of a game winning fg and miss...i dont know maybe im over thinking this lol

I can see and understand all of the previous points except this one. That was the only PAT he had missed since 1993 (was that in 04?). He has been one of the most accurate kickers in the NFL throughout his career. He has remained accurate for 20+ years unlike other guys (Martin Gramatica and Mike Vanderjact [sp?]) who have a few great years and then taper off. He made the Pro Bowl last year. So... I don't know how you can have more confidence in Hartley's accuracy than Carney's because he missed one PAT that, in my mind, was just a fluke. If he couldn't kick under pressure, he would have missed a lot more field goals throughout his long run in the NFL. In fact, I can remember plenty of times where he made the field goal that we needed to cement the win.

Again, if I am the coach, I keep Carney. Not that letting him go for Hartley would be the same as when we showed him the door and signed Mare (wanted a kicker with a bigger leg and acquired him at the cost of accuracy and consistency). But it would be similar. Hartley remains a rather unknown commodity. The big leg is important for kickoffs, I get that... and we have Moorestead.

In my mind, what Carney lacks in range he makes up for with consistency and veteran poise. Now I'm not going to lose sleep over this issue either way... at least until it costs us one way or the other.
 

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