Carney vs. Hartley (1 Viewer)

[muzzy]

Mike Triplett's take:

As for Hartley, I don't know what they plan to do. I don't expect them to cut John Carney regardless because he's steady and reliable. And they don't need Hartley to kick off because Morestead's been doing so well in that role. I just wonder if they want to use up a roster spot to save Hartley for the future. ... My guess is he gets released, though.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/10/new_orleans_saints-new_york_je.html

 

[fwaokda]

I don't care who goes and who stays. They're about the same overall to me.

 

[AL_Bundy]

Our Kicking Game isnt assured with Carney. Everyone complains how Hartley hangs his left, Just look at Carney's FGs and PATS, They've all be ugly and many of them have been to the left. We had to go for it on 4th down this past sunday because Carney couldn't make the kick... much like he had to many times in 06. Hartley can make 50 yard FGs... Carney cant. We have the luxury of a great offense that rarely needs FG's but I'll take distance and youth over someone's career that is coming to its end. Hartley is going to miss a few but that is the cost of gaining experience.

I agree, Carney's kicks have been ugly nailbiters. I don't know why everyone claims Carney is money in the bank, as most of his kicks have been VERY ugly this year. Sure he's made them, but they are not pretty.....nothing to give you any confidence that he can do it on a regular basis. Seems to be a big drop off between Carney of last year, and Carney of this year. Carney seems to be fading fast. Bring back Hartley, IMHO.

Hate to be in the Superbowl, down by 2 pts, running out of time, and needing a 47+ yard kick to win it. For some reason, I think the people wanting to keep Carney are probably the same people that wanted to replace Shanle with Brooks, and Pierre Thomas with Edderrin James. You got to get over past performance and look at present performance, and Carney's present performance seems to be going downhill fast.

It would be different if he was booting them through the middle, making it look automatic like in years past, instead they are knucklers that barely miss the uprights.

 

[Cuozzo67]

If Carney kicks well Sunday (i.e. no misses), I just don't see him being released. I think the question becomes what to do with Hartley. Is he worth a roster spot? Regardless of Sunday's outcome, the team is likely to be in the playoff hunt this season; thus, I think it's worth keeping Hartley on the roster for those long-distance attempts which are bound to come up, sooner or later. I'll support whatever Payton decides, because there are legitimate arguments for keeping Carney (releasing Hartley), keeping Hartley (releasing Carney), or keeping both. I think they'll choose the last option.

 

[NDat#]

I think we go with Hartley.

I agree that part of the issue is long term vs. short term since it appears that the Payton regime is still firmly in place. If this was a make or break season for the coach / front office, then there is a "now" emphasis. Hartley looked solid last year with accuracy and a strong leg. He has the potential to be a fixture in the kicking game for years to come. To me, that potential is too good to pass up when there is no clear advantage of holding on to Carney for this year since Hartley appears to be just as reliable on the shorter kicks (based on last year and not this past preseason) and also give you the strong leg for 50+ and kickoffs if needed.

If Payton had doubts back in '06, even if retrospectively he admits he was wrong releasing Carney at that time, then I think he has even more doubts 3 years out. My guess is that if we can't keep both, we'll go with Hartley and if he struggles, we go back to Carney if (~50% chance) he's still available. I don't think we keep both if it signifcantly hampers our depth at another position though.

 

[The Mongoose]

Here's something I'm worried about, and you may call me crazy if you wish, but I'm worried about it:

Adderall. Kicking is mostly mental at this level - there are thousands of guys with the leg strength and technique to kick at the NFL. But there are only a few dozen probably who have the mental capacity to go along with the physical requirements.

We've all seen it. Once a kicker gets a bad kick or two in his head, he's done. See Chip Loemiller. See Olindo Mare.

Adderall, the drug Hartley was taking (ostensibly to stay awake on a long care ride), directly affects concentration. This is pure speculation, but what if Hartley wasn't taking Adderall to remain awake on a car ride?

Even if Adderall didn't help him kick better, if he thought it did, that's a big deal.

His kicking was off all preseason. Was that because he wasn't on Adderall?

Obviously this is idle speculation; we as fans don't have access to enough information to know if he was a chronic user or if he felt Adderall helped him concentrate on kicks.

But we do know kickers are goofy with the mental side of things. It raises red flags that our kicker got popped for concentration meds then subsequently suddenly started missing kicks.

It's just something else to consider. Was Hartley tested last year while he was kicking well?

 

[shaqtaw]

didnt carney miss a couple of field goals for the giants in the playoffs when they played the eagles?

 

[bobad]

We've all seen it. Once a kicker gets a bad kick or two in his head, he's done. See Chip Loemiller. See Olindo Mare.

I dislike kickers, especially the flaky ones that have rituals, superstitions, draw imaginary lines in the air, or take a certain number of deep breaths before kicking. I have seen none of that in Hartley. He walks right up to the ball, calls for the snap, and kicks. When he does miss a FG, I don't think it will mess with his head.

Your premise that Hartley may have been on Adderall all along certainly crossed my mind. There are many youngsters that are prescribed it all through high school and college.

 

[Air Horn]

Here's something I'm worried about, and you may call me crazy if you wish, but I'm worried about it:

Adderall. Kicking is mostly mental at this level - there are thousands of guys with the leg strength and technique to kick at the NFL. But there are only a few dozen probably who have the mental capacity to go along with the physical requirements.

We've all seen it. Once a kicker gets a bad kick or two in his head, he's done. See Chip Loemiller. See Olindo Mare.

Adderall, the drug Hartley was taking (ostensibly to stay awake on a long care ride), directly affects concentration. This is pure speculation, but what if Hartley wasn't taking Adderall to remain awake on a car ride?

Even if Adderall didn't help him kick better, if he thought it did, that's a big deal.

His kicking was off all preseason. Was that because he wasn't on Adderall?

Obviously this is idle speculation; we as fans don't have access to enough information to know if he was a chronic user or if he felt Adderall helped him concentrate on kicks.

But we do know kickers are goofy with the mental side of things. It raises red flags that our kicker got popped for concentration meds then subsequently suddenly started missing kicks.

It's just something else to consider. Was Hartley tested last year while he was kicking well?

Good points. Kicking is so very mental, we can't have Hartley flaking out if his feathers get ruffled after a miss or a Payton tougue-lashing.

 

[Garidan]

I'm going to strike out on a tangent here:

I think I actually prefer having a kicker with low accuracy at the longer distances. I'm sure this point will be called out as heresy, but if Payton knows that the percentages on field goals between the 30 and 40, say, are lower than otherwise expected, then he will be more inclined to take shots at going for it on 4th and shorts and even 4th and mediums.


I'm firmly in the camp that going for it on 4th and 3 at the 35 is always a good idea in the first three quarters of a game. NFL Coaches are risk-adverse, and are consistantly giving up win percentage in expectation on 4th down plays around this yardage.

See the analysis on the following site:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/09/4th-down-study-part-4.html

For average teams, going for it on even a 4th and 10 (!) can be justified over the options of punting and attempting a FG, and I'd argue that going for it is even MORE justified for our team, which will normally have a better Offense vs Opp. Defense matchup than a Defense vs Opp. Offense matchup. (Though granted, this week against the Jets may be an example of where this may not be the case.)

Anyways, my point is, give me the maximum accuracy on the kicks where it's a no brainer attempt every time over better accuracy on kicks which might be questionable decisions.

There will be people that look back and second guess when this goes wrong, and it WILL some times, but in terms of winning the most games, I think this is the way to go.

 

[Optimistic Ozzy]

I'll take inside the 45 accuracy(Carney) all day.
Going with Hartley just doesn't make sense at this juncture, when you are on a roll as a team I don't think you make this change.

 

[kewlgy415yo]

I say you get them both at practice one day and let them play a field goal equivalent of H-O-R-S-E. Best 2 out of 3. Whoever wins gets the job.

 

[DangBeast]

Carney can't hit a FG from 40 yards out. As much as I like our offense going for it on 4th and 6 against the Bills it gives the other team too good of field position if you do so. Hartley can hit 50 yarders in and outside the dome. Gotta go Hartley, Carney is too old for the long ball.

 

[DangBeast]

Before you give up Hartleys job to Carney, remember the frickin dude didn't miss a FG last year. You real Saints fans remember that.

 

[Jackson]

Carney's overrated IMHO. He missed short kicks in preseason, can't kickoff, and all of his kicks these first 3 weeks have looked shaky (barely squeezed through the left upright).

Harley is young, has a stronger leg, and is batting 1.000 as a pro when it counts.