Chad Johnson/Carson Palmer: Mike Mckenzie probably the best CB we'll face all season (1 Viewer)

[DownWithDisease]

The best way to beat Carson and his trio is to keep them off the field as much as possible.

Translated: Saints O plays balanced, ball control game (especially against the 27th ranked D), and no turnovers...

+1 ...combine my way AND your way for the BESTEST way!.

 

[LSSpam]

The CB position is probably the one that will change most through generational change in the future. Sooner or later a new breed will emerge of 6ft4in corners who still have all the speed and agility of today's smaller CBs.

But when that happens and CBs start preventing more touchdowns, the NFL will change the rules again in favor of the offense.

Mrs Smith, don't raise your boy to be an NFL CB.

Actually I disagree. That was the direction CBs WERE headed, and McKenzie at the time was the poster-boy but there were others. But beginning with a playoff game in which the Patriots CBs just totally mugged the Colts WRs, the NFL made a rules "emphasis" to cut down on that sort of physical contact. As always the NFL decided Offense was prettier then Defense.

What that did was cut down on the advantage tall CBs had over shorter ones. If you cantphysically alter a WR's route with your body what became more important wasn't size but rather the ability to not bite on a double move and the recovery speed to make up ground quickly if you get caught on a pump fake, etc.

Since the rules change then while you still have some physical CBs (Terrence Newman is arguably the best of the bunch, but McKenzie is close) the emphasis is giving more opportunities to smaller CBs with better agility and recovery speed.


You will see a change in the WR-CB dynamic though. As more colleges use spread formations, colleges will respond by converting more and better athletes into corners which will increase the available pool of CBs for the NFL. The NFL is pretty cyclic, it's been in a strong WR cycle lately due to the explosion of spread offenses, but the reaction should produce a strong CB cycle soon.

 

[LSSpam]

I still think MM is one of the better corners in the league and that our CB's are well above league average.

Yes, it would make since to leave MM to play CJ but MM only plays one CB position while Cincy moves Johnson around to give him the best match up possible. I fully expect to see CJ testing Thomas if he plays (please play) and if Craft is in for Thomas then Johnson and Palmer both will be smiling from ear to ear.

I might not go "well" above league average but they are pretty good. The problem is for the scheme Gibbs wants to use he needs CBs similiar to what they have in Dallas at the very least, which is a bit of an upgrade over what we have now. I think CB is a need this offseason.

 

[DownWithDisease]

...you cantphysically alter a WR's route with your body what became more important wasn't size but rather the ability to not bite on a double move and the recovery speed to make up ground quickly if you get caught on a pump fake, etc.

Since the rules change then while you still have some physical CBs (Terrence Newman is arguably the best of the bunch, but McKenzie is close) the emphasis is giving more opportunities to smaller CBs with better agility and recovery speed.

So the big, tall, sure handed WRs that know how to use their body to "shield" the defender away from the ball are pretty much unstoppable?



Good news for Colsten.

 

[kfran]

I might not go "well" above league average but they are pretty good. The problem is for the scheme Gibbs wants to use he needs CBs similiar to what they have in Dallas at the very least, which is a bit of an upgrade over what we have now. I think CB is a need this offseason.

Agree 100%, LSSpam - Not only a strong cover guy to compliment MM while moving Fred to nickel, but also more depth... By the way, I love your research.
You're a student of the game.

 

[kfran]

So the big, tall, sure handed WRs that know how to use their body to "shield" the defender away from the ball are pretty much unstoppable?

Good news for Colsten.

That is a very fair comparison. It's also why Pitt wasn't able to do a thing to stop him, even though they knew Drew was going to be looking for him - That, plus the fact that Drew spreads the ball around so well.

 

[LSSpam]

So the big, tall, sure handed WRs that know how to use their body to "shield" the defender away from the ball are pretty much unstoppable?



Good news for Colsten.

That's the nuts and bolts of it. Anyone watch the Giants this year? Every 3rd play is called "toss it up in the air and watch 6'5 Plaxico jump up and get it". I mean the coverage in those instances is completely meaningless. The only thing the CB can do is hope to get an arm in between the ball and Plax's body and try to pop it back out.

That's why I said earlier this year that in today's NFL single coverage, no matter how good = open. If the QB throws the ball correctly there is only one CB (Champ Bailey) in the entire NFL who can defend it consistently, no matter how perfect the coverage. Fourtantly it's a short list of QBs who can consistently place the deep ball (Peyton Manning, McNabb) like that.

The Vick bomb to Lelie against McKenzie comes to mind. McKenzie had great coverage, I mean really good coverage. The ball was perfectly placed though and Lelie made a good catch. And there wasn't much McKenzie could do about it. Champ Bailey is about the only one in the NFL who would have broken that up. And Champ Bailey is arguably a better physical talent then every WR in the NFL right now to go along with his great anticipation and perfect coverage skills.

 

[Forest]

I still can't figure out why some people are down on Mike McKenzie...the guy does nothing but blanket WRs. Sure there will be plays he gives up, but if the ball is thrown perfectly, there's nothing you can do about it anyway...no CB can say they've never got beat...

 

[BoNcHiE]

I still can't figure out why some people are down on Mike McKenzie...the guy does nothing but blanket WRs. Sure there will be plays he gives up, but if the ball is thrown perfectly, there's nothing you can do about it anyway...

They're not. Its just a vocal minority. For every 1 person in a thread making baseless claims like "Mckenzie gets burnt every play" or "Mckenzie cant' tackle", theres another 10 saying "huh? what are you talking about."

 

[DownWithDisease]

...If the QB throws the ball correctly there is only one CB (Champ Bailey) in the entire NFL who can defend it consistently...

...Champ Bailey is about the only one in the NFL who would have broken that up. And Champ Bailey is arguably a better physical talent then every WR in the NFL right now to go along with his great anticipation and perfect coverage skills.

Would you say Champ Bailey is the best CB the NFL has ever seen? I was having this discussion with a friend of mine, and he was saying that deon Sanders was the best... NO FREAKIN WAY! Deon was (maybe) the best COVER CB, but his run support was laughable at best. Besides, I'm not sure he was a better cover CB than Champ anyway. Rod Woodson was a huckuva CB in his hay-day as well.

 

[LSSpam]

Would you say Champ Bailey is the best CB the NFL has ever seen? I was having this discussion with a friend of mine, and he was saying that deon Sanders was the best... NO FREAKIN WAY! Deon was (maybe) the best COVER CB, but his run support was laughable at best. Besides, I'm not sure he was a better cover CB than Champ anyway. Rod Woodson was a huckuva CB in his hay-day as well.

Deion and Champ are 1a and 1b in terms of coverage ability in my mind. But you're right "Deion doesn't do tackles". Champ isn't exactly a force in run-support, but he is a willing tackler which is a lot more then what Deion could ever say. Rod Woodson wasn't just a great CB, he became a great FS later in life as well. Darrell Green was very good, even more incredible because of the ridiculous longevity he had. I'd say the early 90's were probably the "Golden Age" of CBs now that i'm thinking about it (Aeneas Williams and Eric Allen thrown in there as well) . This is definantly a low point in CB play though right now, so I sometimes wonder if Champ is really as incredible as he is or if it's just that there's so little to compare him too. Sort

 

[Paul]

Deion and Champ are 1a and 1b in terms of coverage ability in my mind. But you're right "Deion doesn't do tackles". Champ isn't exactly a force in run-support, but he is a willing tackler which is a lot more then what Deion could ever say. Rod Woodson wasn't just a great CB, he became a great FS later in life as well. Darrell Green was very good, even more incredible because of the ridiculous longevity he had. I'd say the early 90's were probably the "Golden Age" of CBs now that i'm thinking about it (Aeneas Williams and Eric Allen thrown in there as well) . This is definantly a low point in CB play though right now, so I sometimes wonder if Champ is really as incredible as he is or if it's just that there's so little to compare him too. Sort

Man, I wholeheartedly agree with this post. Perhaps the fans of other teams should read this as it might help their pain when they get roasted and toasted by Colsten, Horn, Bush, & Co.

 

[kfran]

Deion and Champ are 1a and 1b in terms of coverage ability in my mind. But you're right "Deion doesn't do tackles". Champ isn't exactly a force in run-support, but he is a willing tackler which is a lot more then what Deion could ever say. Rod Woodson wasn't just a great CB, he became a great FS later in life as well. Darrell Green was very good, even more incredible because of the ridiculous longevity he had. I'd say the early 90's were probably the "Golden Age" of CBs now that i'm thinking about it (Aeneas Williams and Eric Allen thrown in there as well) . This is definantly a low point in CB play though right now, so I sometimes wonder if Champ is really as incredible as he is or if it's just that there's so little to compare him too. Sort

Man, I really enjoy reading your posts because I'm always learning a little more. They also validate some of my personal beliefs. Thanks!

 

[Infamous504]

What, no pepto bismo, no list, no smack talk about MM, the best corner back he faces all year. :Singe1301:

 

[Beagle]

Actually I disagree. That was the direction CBs WERE headed, and McKenzie at the time was the poster-boy but there were others.

I won't argue, because you know bucketloads more than I do, and I respect your opinions.

It is reasonable to project, however, that NFL players generally will just keep on getting bigger - taller, heavier, faster - through generational change, because that's what's happened over the decades, and not just in football. It's something I find interesting. For example, just how big can a guard get before he becomes ineffective? 400lb? More?

I've seen reports from medical experts that a 400lb lineman is not feasible because his heart won't be able to cope with the violent work his body will be required to put out. But I'm not so sure. You can bet medical experts were saying that about 300lb linemen in the past.