Character vs Talent (1 Viewer)

St. PJ

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When I think of teams of great character and great talent, I think of the Indianapolis Colts. We all know what an honorable man Tony Dungy is and the respect the players have for their coach. When I think of teams of great talent and questionable characters, I think of Dallas, San Diego, and New England. I know our coach is a man of character and wants a team of high character guys who are smart and get the most of their abilities. Thats great. My question is, do we have the patience to wait for our coach to try and find guys with both character and talent on defense?

Personally, I don't. Not when Drew Brees is in his prime. I say go grab Deangelo Hall now. Trade for the immature and selfish me first Hall and draft a high character cb to learn for a few years and replace him. We need a bonafide corner now. Great character may have got us to 4-4 after the bad start, but great character with a lack of talent on defense is also the reason we were 0-4 to begin with. No one wanted to touch Randy Moss with a ten foot pole, but the Patriots "took a chance" (I say the stole Moss and knew exactly what they were getting) and look how it worked out.

I beleive the Patriots are a dirty team, like their safety Rodney Harrison, they play dirty. Regardless of how you feel about them, they are talented, and have enough character to understand that their collective best equals superbowl. Having a few selfish guys works for them because even the bad cats aren't stupid enough to miss the fact that they have a great coach, a solid game plan, and enough TALENT in areas crucial to turning a loss into a win.

I think Deangelo Hall would not be a cancer on this team. I think bringing in someone like him would sway other high calibur defensive free agents to want to come to New Orleans becuase they would see that now the talent is there at on of the weakest positions we have (which is also the hardest to find).

My point is I would sacrifice my ethics. The end never justifies the means, and in this case I don't care. We need someone of this calibur and I don't see us finding one in free agency unless we damn the rest of the defensive needs and break the bank fo Samuels. Do you really want to see us grab another David or Craft-- a second tier CB with some starting experience who wasn't good enough to be franchised? Do you really want to be hoping that somehow some way we luck out in the draft and grab the equivalent of a Colston at CB? We have been hoping for that the past 10 years. Forget that, trade for Hall, hopefully then focus on upgrading the LBs, S's , and both lines. Oh yeah, then draft a high character CB in the 2nd or 3rd round and have the luxury of letting him learn behind someone with great talent.
 

BoNcHiE

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Its impossible to trade for Hall. Division rivals rarely trade with each other.

Do we really want a player that has to be treated a certain way or put in a certain situation to play hard? Its like TO. Yeah hes great, but you have to totally make your offense revolve around him or he gets upset. Add to the fact that Hall isn't even a good CB and I see no point in trading for him even if it were possible.

The whole character vs. talent thing is a big cliche this board goes way overboard with. You don't have to sacrifice one or the other, and character has little to do with ethics. Pacman Jones is a decent player, but because of his character he can't stay on the field. A player like Hall was benched this year for racking up like 100 yards in penalties because he can't control himself. He was fined 100,000 dollars for on the field stuff this year. He may have some talent, but it doesn't translate on the field and the dude is immature and can't control his emotions.
 

Dragon

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I say go grab Deangelo Hall now. Trade for the immature and selfish me first Hall and draft a high character cb to learn for a few years and replace him.

And hope that this high quality CB don't imitate D. Hall too much ???

I don't think character is everything but it is important because the chance of low character players getting into trouble = > Suspensions => not available to play anyway is too big. Remember when we lost Thomas for 4 games ? Imaging if Hall or Pacman were on this team and we lost them for 4-8-? games. We would have wasted a spot on the roster and valuable cap space without getting anything in return.

I'm not against taking a chance on a player, who might have some character issues, but it certainly depends on what kinds of issues, and I would expect the team to do a thorough investigation first
 

DavidM

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The problem I have with the thinking is it reads like (even though it might not be)...Deangelo Hall or bust.

Hall isn't the only player that could come in and bolster the secondary. I'd much rather the team find better players who can also fit in with the team dynamic.

That said, I'd agree that overall team talent is the biggest key to winning (character is important but not the be-all, end-all) and I'm in full agreement that the Saints' current defensive roster isn't talented enough. But I don't think the only way to address it is through a "throw caution to the wind" approach.
 

Loco Hornet Fan

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I'm not sure nobody would go near Moss "with a ten foot pole" because of his character concerns. I'm sure people were still more than willing to put up with him but his contract made it almost impossible to trade for him.

I don't want guys like Pacman, Chris Henry, etc, because they get arrested and suspended. They can't help you win if they can't stay on the field.

Hall can't seem to keep his ego or his temper in check and this makes him hard to deal with and doesn't do him any favors on the field. However, I could probably put up with him if I thought he was a better player. But I agree with Bonchie and some of the other posters who believe Hall to be a pretty over-rated corner.
 

supersaint15

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over rated but better than what we have. David wasnt one of top 5 choices last year.So that leads me to believe we will go after a corner bad this year
 

MVCrook

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Its impossible to trade for Hall. Division rivals rarely trade with each other.

Ok, BoNcHiE..which is it: Impossible or Rare? :hihi: Just busting balls a little.

I highly doubt they would trade him to a division rival that has swept them the past two seasons. That would make no since on their part (I may be giving them too much credit on intelligence). He'd have those games circled on his calendar for sure. On a personal note, I have never been very impressed with his play and would rather grab a good FA or a address it in the draft (early in the draft). My $.02
 

shaqtaw

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hall had a problem with his coach. inhind sight look at what the coach did. he quit before the season ended
 

BoNcHiE

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hall had a problem with his coach. inhind sight look at what the coach did. he quit before the season ended

Hall had problems under Mora Jr. also.
 

SuperQuincy

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I personally wouldn't go for Hall, a change of sceneary may be good for him and help his career but it wouldn't here. He just dosen't seem like a good fit, I trhink we need a veteran leader back there to help these guys. Someone who know how to do it the right way. Hall is still a bit of a project in my eyes, he still needs work as a corner and has not yet perfected his craft.

But I wouldn;t mind taking Haynesworth if he hits the market, and he was suspended for taking off a guys helmet and stomping on his head. SO I agree with the OP about the Character thing. However, I don't really see Payton strictly staying away from character guys, reguardless of the potential impact to the team. I think he got rid of bad character guys when he first came in, and some were good players but that what ya have to do when your starting over. You get rid of the bad apples and ya do it sooner than later before the start taking others with them. We all heard it here first week of mini camps year one Joe Horn was complaining doing drills, bad mouthin new coach, stupid drills etc. I knew he was gone, and i knew it would be before he saw the real money in his contract. Stallworth IMO was listening to Joe a little to much. Showing up late to everything, non caring attitude here, having a team leading fines, I believe a quarter million dollars. He needed to go, you can't let that stuff spread, you need to cut ties with these guys, the length into thier deals made one expendable right away. But he had to let people see thats not the way you can go about your business. I think he got the bad seeds out, and set the example if you will. I don't think Payton is a coach who will ignore football skills because of a bad past if he thinks its behind the person and believes the person is controlable to a certain extent. I mean he brought in Walt Thomas (hold the beast jokes, yes I know very long thread) Took him 9 minutes or so to see he made a mistake but he took a looksy. I think he knows what it is doing as far as character goes and I don't see us as a team of choir boys. He will bring in the talent, he just needs the time.
 
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BoNcHiE

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I agree. I think the whole "Payton only goes after Character guys" is way overblown. We haven't seen him enough to even know thats true of him. And if it is, character is a loaded term. When I think character I just want the player to play 100% without letting his ego and temper get in the way of a team victory. I don't think Payton is passing on players because they aren't perfect little angels.
 

Pure Energy

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My point is I would sacrifice my ethics. The end never justifies the means, and in this case I don't care.

This seemed to be approach during the Haslett era--get the physically talented low character guys in FA and through the draft and build a Championship team. Names that come quickly to mind are: Albert Connell, Dale Carter, and draft picks like Talman Gardner and Adrian McPherson.

I'm not saying FA's and draft picks don't overcome previous troubles--look at Moss and Sapp. However, I would prefer to take my chances with high character guys like Duece, Brees, Pierre Thomas, Colston, Jhari Evans than roll the dice and revisit the Haslett era. Look only as far as the Bengals for perhaps the most physically talented team in the NFL as a prime example of the effect character issues have on winning.
 

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I used to play several sports competitively and even two collegiately. I can tell you right now that I would much rather have a talented player with an attitude than a guy with all the heart in the world. Heart can only get you so far, and more often than not its talent that wins out when it comes to making a roster. Don't get me wrong, character is an important factor in CERTAIN processes when choosing someone in the draft. But when it comes to an established veteran, all any team cares about is that they know the player in question can get it done on the field a la Randy Moss this year with the Pats. One thing a lot of people don't like to accept is that the NFL, ultimately, is a business and losing is equivalent to losing money. The owners could care less if a murderer is on their team as long as they win for them (see Leonard Little). Fellas to quote my dad, "The Almighty Dollar Always Wins Out."
 

TideSaint

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This seemed to be approach during the Haslett era--get the physically talented low character guys in FA and through the draft and build a Championship team. Names that come quickly to mind are: Albert Connell, Dale Carter, and draft picks like Talman Gardner and Adrian McPherson.

I'm not saying FA's and draft picks don't overcome previous troubles--look at Moss and Sapp. However, I would prefer to take my chances with high character guys like Duece, Brees, Pierre Thomas, Colston, Jhari Evans than roll the dice and revisit the Haslett era. Look only as far as the Bengals for perhaps the most physically talented team in the NFL as a prime example of the effect character issues have on winning.

The Bengals are nowhere near the most physically talented team in the NFL.
 

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I think you create an atmosphere of 'character' in the locker room and when you take a person with suspect character, he either gets along or moves along. That's what the Pats did with Moss. That being said, if a guy isn't a comlete bafoon,and has talent,I think you could integrate him into the team. I think Payton is building just such an atmosphere in N.O.
 

Loco Hornet Fan

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I used to play several sports competitively and even two collegiately. I can tell you right now that I would much rather have a talented player with an attitude than a guy with all the heart in the world. Heart can only get you so far, and more often than not its talent that wins out when it comes to making a roster. Don't get me wrong, character is an important factor in CERTAIN processes when choosing someone in the draft. But when it comes to an established veteran, all any team cares about is that they know the player in question can get it done on the field a la Randy Moss this year with the Pats. One thing a lot of people don't like to accept is that the NFL, ultimately, is a business and losing is equivalent to losing money. The owners could care less if a murderer is on their team as long as they win for them (see Leonard Little). Fellas to quote my dad, "The Almighty Dollar Always Wins Out."

I don't mind having a talented player with an attitude, it's just that I don't like any of the names that have been brought up recently.

There was the Pacman Jones thread, and we all know how bad bringing him in looks right now. There is a difference between having a bad attitude and getting arrested/suspended. I also disagree that owners would welcome "a murderer" on the team if he was a good player. Michael Vick killed dogs and is out of football, mabe forever.

Again, a bad attitude I can put up with. That means being late for meetings, sometimes spouting off to the media or doing something stupid in their spare time. But guys like Chris Henry, Pacman, even Tank Johnson, are huge risks because of their likely-hood to get suspended.

As for Hall, he's just not good enough (in my opinion) to be getting so much money and to be such of a problem in the locker room. If he were as good as someone like Champ Baily, then I could probably over look it. But Hall isn't even close to that level of corner back.
 

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