Chicago gets it's 500th homicide in 9 months... (1 Viewer)

[MrVoodoo]

I don't know that it is the main focus, but I don't think I can say either way unless I lived in that community. I don't know how deep that mistrust runs, and when you truly mistrust the authorities, who (or what) do you turn to?

edit: wish people will actually present a counterpoint, other than a red thumb. I guess some people think police are above reproach at all times.

When you write an article like this and you make a point to try to address "Who's to blame" - you start with what should be the primary reason. Here they start with the police and make the offhanded statement "But the other side of this battle is the street crime." That puts street crime as a secondary reason to issues with the Police. Then the article dismisses the issue of economics by saying that unemployment rates dropped. Yes, the primary focus in this article as a reason to why these happen is the Police.


Now in regards to mistrusting authorities as you say, "who (or what) do you turn to?" You turn to social leaders and social programs to work out the root cause. Crime is so rampant there - mistrust of police does not cause crime, sure it may cause someone to take things into their own hands - but it doesn't cause the situation that created that. You can't justify murdering someone because you don't trust the authorities... that makes you worse (or in some cases just as bad) than those authorities you don't trust.

Regardless of how you personally feel about police, regardless of the issues of police brutality, regardless of the police period - the police cannot be causation of 500 homicides (with the exception of situations like the Philippines where it appears that police are executing drug dealers/users on the streets).

 

[MrVoodoo]

I think one of the many odd things during the Obama presidency has been the focus, usually by conservatives, on Chicago's violence.

Odd for many reasons, but mostly because there are quite a lot of cities with murder rates much higher than Chicago's.

My understanding - not to justify their focus - is that Chicago has very strict gun laws, but still have very high murder rates. I think the point is - regardless of the strict gunlaws... criminals will find a way to obtain the weapon, so others should be able to arm themselves to defend against that. I think that's the train of thought - not sure, I'm not a big NRA type of guy (though I do enjoy shooting at the range on occasion - stress relief).

 

[coldseat]

I think one of the many odd things during the Obama presidency has been the focus, usually by conservatives, on Chicago's violence.

Odd for many reasons, but mostly because there are quite a lot of cities with murder rates much higher than Chicago's.

Not really that odd considering that by highlighting the violence in Chicago, they can through their surrogates in talk radio relate it to Obama, since he used to be community worker there, and cast aspersions on him. Not all that clever or surprising really.

Having said that, the violence there is bad. Especially this year that the number of murders has already surpassed 500. So they're looking at being #1 in the US this year. It's a real problem that needs a real solution. So maybe all of the focus and scrutiny isn't a bad thing for Chicago in the long run as it may lead to a solution. I just have no idea what that solution is.

What I think will happen as a result of all of this prolonged attention, as often happens in situations like this, is people on the ground will get to work, the government will institute some programs, hopefully the policing will improve and in 5 to 10 years, we'll see a report on the news on how Chicago turned it's murder rate around and became a safe city. Not unlike what happened with New York after the '80's. What will be interesting is if other cities like New Orleans and Detroit be able to follow suite or will they be left behind since they aren't the focus.

 

[coldseat]

My understanding - not to justify their focus - is that Chicago has very strict gun laws, but still have very high murder rates. I think the point is - regardless of the strict gunlaws... criminals will find a way to obtain the weapon, so others should be able to arm themselves to defend against that. I think that's the train of thought - not sure, I'm not a big NRA type of guy (though I do enjoy shooting at the range on occasion - stress relief).

60% of the guns on Chicago streets come from out of state. How exactly are strict gun laws supposed to work when they can just funnel in legal guns from surrounding states?

 

[JimEverett]

Not really that odd considering that by highlighting the violence in Chicago, they can through their surrogates in talk radio relate it to Obama, since he used to be community worker there, and cast aspersions on him. Not all that clever or surprising really.

Having said that, the violence there is bad. Especially this year that the number of murders has already surpassed 500. So they're looking at being #1 in the US this year. It's a real problem that needs a real solution. So maybe all of the focus and scrutiny isn't a bad thing for Chicago in the long run as it may lead to a solution. I just have no idea what that solution is.

What I think will happen as a result of all of this prolonged attention, as often happens in situations like this, is people on the ground will get to work, the government will institute some programs, hopefully the policing will improve and in 5 to 10 years, we'll see a report on the news on how Chicago turned it's murder rate around and became a safe city. Not unlike what happened with New York after the '80's. What will be interesting is if other cities like New Orleans and Detroit be able to follow suite or will they be left behind since they aren't the focus.

#1 as to murders? That is akin to comparing the USA with Botswana and saying we have more murders. Sure it's true, but largely meaningless.
By rate, I don't think Chicago is even in the top 50, yet it is constantly singled out - at least over the last 7 plus years.

 

[SystemShock]

When you write an article like this and you make a point to try to address "Who's to blame" - you start with what should be the primary reason.

Ok. But you live in Mississippi. Can you say 100% this is not the primary reason? You don't live there.

Here they start with the police and make the offhanded statement "But the other side of this battle is the street crime." That puts street crime as a secondary reason to issues with the Police.

That'd be 2 sides, so it'd be more like 50/50.

Now in regards to mistrusting authorities as you say, "who (or what) do you turn to?" You turn to social leaders and social programs to work out the root cause.

And if the social leaders don't trust the authorities either? If you misturst authorities, why would you think a social program will do anything for you?

Crime is so rampant there - mistrust of police does not cause crime, sure it may cause someone to take things into their own hands -

So you do admit that, at the very least, it can compound the problem.

You can't justify murdering someone because you don't trust the authorities... that makes you worse (or in some cases just as bad) than those authorities you don't trust.

Who's justifying anything?

Regardless of how you personally feel about police, regardless of the issues of police brutality, regardless of the police period - the police cannot be causation of 500 homicides (with the exception of situations like the Philippines where it appears that police are executing drug dealers/users on the streets).

So it can't, only when it can LOL.

In any case, I'll stand by my original statement: mistrust for police is not the root cause of 500 homicides, but it is reasonable to think it compounds the problem.

 

[MrVoodoo]

60% of the guns on Chicago streets come from out of state. How exactly are strict gun laws supposed to work when they can just funnel in legal guns from surrounding states?

I think the focus is that the guns will find their way in. Even if we had strict gun control laws nationwide - the guns would find their way in. Easier for them to find their way in to Chicago, but look at the drug and human trafficking - it'll find it's way in and the only people who would have access with strict gun control laws are the criminals smuggling them in. I think that's what the focus and argument is... I could be wrong, but that's the logic I associate with it.

 

[BHM]

60% of the guns on Chicago streets come from out of state. How exactly are strict gun laws supposed to work when they can just funnel in legal guns from surrounding states?

Was the war on drugs a failure because of a lack of strict drug laws in surrounding states?


No, it failed because people want drugs and will find a way to get the drug of their choice. Same applies to guns. The demand is there and as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

 

[CajunInVA]

I think the focus is that the guns will find their way in. Even if we had strict gun control laws nationwide - the guns would find their way in. Easier for them to find their way in to Chicago, but look at the drug and human trafficking - it'll find it's way in and the only people who would have access with strict gun control laws are the criminals smuggling them in. I think that's what the focus and argument is... I could be wrong, but that's the logic I associate with it.

I think Hawaii and its stricter laws disagrees with your opinion.

Hawaii has lowest gun death rate in the nation, new analysis finds
By Web Staff
Published: January 30, 2015, 9:28 am

Newly available data for 2013 reveals that states with weak gun violence prevention laws and higher rates of gun ownership have the highest overall gun death rates in the nation, according to a Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Hawaii has lowest gun death rate in the nation, new analysis finds | KHON2

 

[saintfan-n-alex]

It's not the root cause of 500 homicides, but I feel it is reasonable to think, people who mistrust police may be willing to seek justice, or even revenge, for themselves, and therefore that mistrust plays a part in compounding the problem.

I recall after Katrina ( possibly due to uptick in crime in Houston etc) there were talks about something like the "48 hour murder" which got the name due to after 48 hours suspects were released because no one would provide evidence due to fear of retaliation - it wasn't fear of the police but fear of friends of the accused

 

[saintfan-n-alex]

I recall after Katrina ( possibly due to uptick in crime in Houston etc) there were talks about something like the "48 hour murder" which got the name due to after 48 hours suspects were released because no one would provide evidence due to fear of retaliation - it wasn't fear of the police but fear of friends of the accused

Was the 60 day rule

 

[mt15]

Not really that odd considering that by highlighting the violence in Chicago, they can through their surrogates in talk radio relate it to Obama, since he used to be community worker there, and cast aspersions on him. Not all that clever or surprising really.

Jim's right that Chicago is being singled out by (mostly) conservatives as a cautionary example. Two reasons, first, well, Obama, and second to prove a pet point about gun restrictions. Hawaii is a much better example of how gun restrictions can help curb gun violence, but you won't see that being mentioned as it doesn't fit their narrative.

The poster who mentioned that the violence is contained is exactly right. The parts of Chicago that are violent are not where tourists are likely to be. It definitely needs to be addressed, and I believe distrust of Chicago police by minority citizens does indeed play a role in obstructing the remedies.

 

[MrVoodoo]

I think Hawaii and its stricter laws disagrees with your opinion.

Hawaii has lowest gun death rate in the nation, new analysis finds
By Web Staff
Published: January 30, 2015, 9:28 am

Newly available data for 2013 reveals that states with weak gun violence prevention laws and higher rates of gun ownership have the highest overall gun death rates in the nation, according to a Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Hawaii has lowest gun death rate in the nation, new analysis finds | KHON2

That's not my opinion, that's the logic I associate with their argument.

My opinion, however, in regards to Hawaii is - Hawaii is an island in the middle of the ocean... smuggling guns into Hawaii would be much more difficult than smuggling guns into the mainland. You can definitely make the case for Hawaii's gun laws being a good example of what can happen, but in my opinion I don't believe that it is comparing apples to apples.

 

[Dre]

Did Hawaii have a gun/murder problem that was resolved after implementing strict gun control laws? Or was there no gun problem that has continued to be no problem after strict gun control laws were implemented?

 

[SystemShock]

Was the war on drugs a failure because of a lack of strict drug laws in surrounding states?


No, it failed because people want drugs and will find a way to get the drug of their choice. Same applies to guns. The demand is there and as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

I read your post yesterday and I wanted to reply to it, but I had to think about it for a bit, because you are making a valid point. Yet, drugs create a physiological dependency in drug users, and I don't think guns create a physiological dependency in gun owners... maybe a psychological dependency, but not a physiological dependency: your body chemistry doesn't make you crave for a gun.

So, should we focus on treatment for this psychological dependency?
I personally think we should.