CNN Analyst Calls Out Fox Contributor for His White Privilege. He's Black. (1 Viewer)

DadsDream

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Off hand, I'd compare this to trumping your partner's ace. Oops! :haha-rire-395:
My purpose in posting this is to share a good laugh. :elefant:

- dd

The gaffe occurred on David Webb's Sirius XM radio show, according to the Washington Post.

Webb: “I’ve chosen to cross different parts of the media world, done the work so that I’m qualified to be in each one; I never considered my color the issue; I considered my qualifications the issue.”

Martin: “Well, David, that’s a whole other long conversation about white privilege, the things that you have the privilege of doing, that people of color don’t have the privilege of.”

Webb: “How do I have the privilege of white privilege?"

Martin: “David, by virtue of being a white male you have white privilege. This whole long conversation, I don’t have time to get into — ”

Webb: “Areva, I hate to break it to you, but you should’ve been better prepped. I’m black."

1547610339233.png
Martin Webb

After Martin repeatedly apologized, Webb continued:

“You’re talking to a black man . . . who started out in rock radio in Boston, who crossed the paths into hip-hop, rebuilding one of the greatest black stations in America and went on to work at Fox News where I’m told apparently blacks aren’t supposed to work, but yet, you come with this assumption, and you go to white privilege. “That’s actually insulting.”

No formal apology has been issued at this point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2019/01/15/cnn-analyst-called-out-fox-news-contributor-his-white-privilege-hes-black/?utm_term=.5f15a121f634
 
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N.O.Bronco

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Whether she "misused" the term or applied it incorrectly is more at the point I am making. I don't think she misused it. In fact, had David Webb been white I suspect many people would agree with her. Even though she still would have known little to nothing about David Webb and his life the mere fact that he was white (under the scenario) would have meany he benefited from the privilege.
If that isn't a stereotypical view I am not sure what is.
So you gonna answer my questions or not Jim? You keep making these assertions without any sort of validation toward your underlying premises.

I’m trying to engage you conservatives but I need at least one of you conservatives to have the backbone to go deeper then soap box spiels and engage back.
 

JimEverett

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So you gonna answer my questions or not Jim? You keep making these assertions without any sort of validation toward your underlying premises.

I’m trying to engage you conservatives but I need at least one of you conservatives to have the backbone to go deeper then soap box spiels and engage back.
I thought I did address them, in the post above the one you quoted.
 

N.O.Bronco

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The questions aren’t simply about averages, you could easily of ascertained that.

Look, by the simple fact most of you all(and by that I mean the conservatives making assertions similar to yours) clearly aren’t even aware of any of the figures or notions I am speaking about says enough, which is that very clearly all of you have never actually engaged this space with any sort of objective rigor. Which begs the question why so many of you are so passionately convinced of your assertions? That seems, idk, slightly irrational.

You used her miscue as grounds to dismiss the concept itself, which is where I am taking my issue. Taking issue with abusing the term is something I am fine with, it’s a real problem and even amongst people in the same political circle argue over the risks of lobbing it as an argumentative tool(surprisingly enough I actually think it is a poor persuasive tool) we see it in this very thread.

White privilege is not the notion that every white person had it easier than every black person, it’s simply a framework around the ways in which society works to favor white people, males in particular. The questions I asked get to the illustration of this point. To move this conversation into something where we can have a substantive discussion and not one built of soap boxes speeches. It’s not simply the racial wealth gap that is real, it is the subtle ways society benefits people like us, white men. The way networking works relative to who holds a majority of power, the way housing discrimination stacks the deck in education and asset growth, the way cultural biases disproportionately affect one group over the other. I asked a question about pocket listings for a specific reason, because it is a concept that very much embodies the way this system manifests itself even today. Subtlety, substantively, but very few people even think of it through this capacity(if they even know of it at all)z And if you are a conservative commentator, white or black, you probably benefitted from the mechanisms as well. And engaging thes questions honestly could help illustrate the hows and whys. Get us to a place where these conversations can actually be open and productive.
 

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So I'll extend my set of questions to you as well:

- Do you deny there is a racial wealth gap?

- For every dollar of wealth the average white person has, how much does the average black person have? ballpark figure is fine, this isn't a graded quiz.

- Are you aware of research on the racial disparities in school discipline and how that affects a students prospects from an early age?

- Are you aware of the networking phenomena in hiring practices and how historical economic distributions affect future employment and job growth?

- Are you aware of the concept of red-lining or pocket listings?

There is not doubt there is a wage disparity between races but I must say that the manner in which you are making your argument lends to a lot of the problems you see for yourself. I think your argument had some validity about 20 years ago but I live and work in an area that is extremely racially diverse and I see a future that is even more so. My opinion is that there are people in the black community that do not want there to be racial equality for self supporting reason.

Racial disparities in schools? This is a huge can of worms and I fail to see where anyone can blame white privileged on the failure education. Have you seen school boards of inner city schools, have you seen the parents take the schools interest over their own personal interest. Their is more redevelopment of urban housing than ever before right now which should help inner city schools. At the same time there are more housing opportunities in the suburbs which allows black kids the same schools as the privileged white kids. Education is there, the black community who believe in white privileged should embrace it the education system.

Hiring? First, more resume's are scanned more than they are reviewed by human eyes. Second, there are more skilled jobs available today that pay just as much or more than jobs with degrees. Third, diversity is a HUGE movement in corporate america so much so that white male middle class workers are more likely to be at a disadvantage than any other class. Those jobs are not necessarily going to black qualified workers though because of the push for a global workforce as well.

Red Lining and pocket listings? This is just ridiculous crying at this point. Sorry to be blunt but with the technology in real estate this is just not possible on any scale that is of consequence. A seller wants to sell, a Realtor wants their commission, and ease of lawsuits for housing discrimination is not worth it for the Realtor, Brokers, or sellers.
 
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JimEverett

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The questions aren’t simply about averages, you could easily of ascertained that.
They seemed that way to me. Averages and/or generalities. Not particulars. But I am open to explanation as to why I am wrong.

Look, by the simple fact most of you all(and by that I mean the conservatives making assertions similar to yours) clearly aren’t even aware of any of the figures or notions I am speaking about says enough, which is that very clearly all of you have never actually engaged this space with any sort of objective rigor. Which begs the question why so many of you are so passionately convinced of your assertions? That seems, idk, slightly irrational.
You tend to assume a lot. I am not going to call myself an expert on some of the issues you raise, but I have more that a simple awareness of them. So your point here. is way off the mark.

You used her miscue as grounds to dismiss the concept itself, which is where I am taking my issue. Taking issue with abusing the term is something I am fine with, it’s a real problem and even amongst people in the same political circle argue over the risks of lobbing it as an argumentative tool(surprisingly enough I actually think it is a poor persuasive tool) we see it in this very thread.
Miscue as to what? If you mean the miscue of applying "white privilege" to a black person then that is not the miscue I am really thinking of. Its applying such a concept to a person she knows virtually nothing about. That is the problem with the concept. Had this gentleman been a white person, it would have been just another use of the term "white privilege." But its that aspect of its use that makes me call into the question the concept of white privilege itself.


White privilege is not the notion that every white person had it easier than every black person, it’s simply a framework around the ways in which society works to favor white people, males in particular. The questions I asked get to the illustration of this point. To move this conversation into something where we can have a substantive discussion and not one built of soap boxes speeches. It’s not simply the racial wealth gap that is real, it is the subtle ways society benefits people like us, white men. The way networking works relative to who holds a majority of power, the way housing discrimination stacks the deck in education and asset growth, the way cultural biases disproportionately affect one group over the other. I asked a question about pocket listings for a specific reason, because it is a concept that very much embodies the way this system manifests itself even today. Subtlety, substantively, but very few people even think of it through this capacity(if they even know of it at all)z And if you are a conservative commentator, white or black, you probably benefitted from the mechanisms as well. And engaging thes questions honestly could help illustrate the hows and whys. Get us to a place where these conversations can actually be open and productive.
If white privilege" was merely some academic concept used to explain certain socio-economic factors then that is one thing. But that is not how it is used and anyone being honest knows it. It is applied to individuals - as in SPECIFIC people enjoy the privilege - namely white people. Again, that is why had this wealthy lawyer from L.A. who works for CNN and CBS had been talking to a white person no one bats an eye.
 

N.O.Bronco

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There is not doubt there is a wage disparity between races but I must say that the manner in which you are making your argument lends to a lot of the problems you see for yourself. I think your argument had some validity about 20 years ago but I live and work in an area that is extremely racially diverse and I see a future that is even more so. My opinion is that there are people in the black community that do not want there to be racial equality for self supporting reason.

Racial disparities in schools? This is a huge can of worms and I fail to see where anyone can blame white privileged on the failure education. Have you seen school boards of inner city schools, have you seen the parents take the schools interest over their own personal interest. Their is more redevelopment of urban housing than ever before right now which should help inner city schools. At the same time there are more housing opportunities in the suburbs which allows black kids the same schools as the privileged white kids. Education is there, the black community who believe in white privileged should embrace it the education system.

Hiring? First, more resume's are scanned more than they are reviewed by human eyes. Second, there are more skilled jobs available today that pay just as much or more than jobs with degrees. Third, diversity is a HUGE movement in corporate america so much so that white male middle class workers are more likely to be at a disadvantage than any other class. Those jobs are not necessarily going to black qualified workers though because of the push for a global workforce as well.

Red Lining and pocket listings? This is just ridiculous crying at this point. Sorry to be blunt but with the technology in real estate this is just not possible on any scale that is of consequence. A seller wants to sell, a Realtor wants their commission, and ease of lawsuits for housing discrimination is not worth it for the Realtor, Brokers, or sellers.


They seemed that way to me. Averages and/or generalities. Not particulars. But I am open to explanation as to why I am wrong.



You tend to assume a lot. I am not going to call myself an expert on some of the issues you raise, but I have more that a simple awareness of them. So your point here. is way off the mark.


Miscue as to what? If you mean the miscue of applying "white privilege" to a black person then that is not the miscue I am really thinking of. Its applying such a concept to a person she knows virtually nothing about. That is the problem with the concept. Had this gentleman been a white person, it would have been just another use of the term "white privilege." But its that aspect of its use that makes me call into the question the concept of white privilege itself.



If white privilege" was merely some academic concept used to explain certain socio-economic factors then that is one thing. But that is not how it is used and anyone being honest knows it. It is applied to individuals - as in SPECIFIC people enjoy the privilege - namely white people. Again, that is why had this wealthy lawyer from L.A. who works for CNN and CBS had been talking to a white person no one bats an eye.

So are you all going to answer the questions or not?

This intellectual cowardice is really getting old.

If the answer is simnply I am ignorant of these facts and still want to make declarations anyways, just say it.

This is straight pathetic.
 

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Some threads age well and others don't. This one didn't. Round and round we go.
 

JimEverett

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So are you all going to answer the questions or not?

This intellectual cowardice is really getting old.

If the answer is simnply I am ignorant of these facts and still want to make declarations anyways, just say it.

This is straight pathetic.
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
 

N.O.Bronco

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How do you think i feel Jim?

Trying to engage for a week and getting nothing but getting talked past?

Lets just go through it because a week of this is getting tiring even for me:



- For every dollar of wealth the average white person has, how much does the average black person have? ballpark figure is fine, this isn't a graded quiz.

A.) Currently for every dollar of wealth the average white person has a person of color has 5-15 cents to that dollar. And this gap has grown notably since The Great Recession. This is not a closing gap, this is a widening one. So notions that this is a problem of years gone by is not the case at all.​
This is significant for a number of reasons. Namely the way wealth compounds and works. If you have a dollar and I have a dollar and we both make the same wise investments, guess what happens to our wealth gap? It gets bigger and deviates further. This gets to the problem Martin Luther King wrote about:​
“Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man is entering the starting line in a race 300 years after another man, the first would have to perform some impossible feat in order to catch up with his fellow runner.”
Wealth disparity impacts every aspect of our lives, from the public school quality we have access to, to the communities we grow up, to the networks we use to advance our careers, to the resources we have to succeed.​
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- Are you aware of research on the racial disparities in school discipline and how that affects a students prospects from an early age?
This is not the first report to find something like this
It would be one thing if the GAO report was the first with findings like this, but there’s a lot of research and data that shows black kids are disproportionately punished in schools:​

- Federal civil rights investigations have found that black students are punished more harshly than white students in schools even when black and white students engage in identical or similar behavior.
  • Black students with disabilities are almost three times as likely to experience out-of-school suspension or expulsion as their white counterparts, and twice as likely to experience in-school suspension or expulsion, according to a report from the National Center for Learning Disabilities.
  • Although black boys face higher rates of school discipline than anyone else, a report from Columbia Law School’s Center for Intersectionality and Social Policy Studies found that black girls are six times as likely to be suspended as white girls, while black boys are three times as likely to be suspended as white boys.
Furthermore, school are as segregated today as they were forty years ago. Significantly worse than they were twenty years ago:​
Which is line with movements in places like Baton Rouge that are essentially re-segregating their areas by re-drawing city lines to carve out black communities and deny them access to their schooling system.​
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- Are you aware of the networking phenomena in hiring practices and how historical economic distributions affect future employment and job growth?


This is something I have spoken about at length before. Most jobs in life are filled through networking. Networking is often about who you know and who you know has a lot to do with how you were brought up and where. Most senior positions and hiring positions are held, believe it or not, by white men. Which gives other white men a significant advantage in the job market. Network attained jobs often pay more, are more secure, and are how more senior positions are often filled. Most apprenticeships revolve around established hierarchical and closed loop businesses and again, tend to be dominated by one type of person and from within certain communities. This phenomena creates an inherent advantage for those people that are born into that category. It shouldn't be seen how that also affects life-time earning potential and economic distributions in the job market and throughout society.​
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- Are you aware of the concept of red-lining or pocket listings?


Despite assertions in a prior post, the idea that this is some long gone phenomenon is both incorrect and ignores the compounding affect of divergent wealth over generations. Vox did an excellent explainer on this on their Netflix show, probably better than I am about to illustrate.​
Redlining is essentially the systemic discrimination of black people through the housing market.​
The Housing market has been the single largest generator of wealth in this country. In fact America's middle class could essentially be boiled down to a rise in labor standards, economic resources, war, and housing.​
So inherently there is the obvious problem that one group was systematically denied access to this pathway of wealth generation to this day.​
Wells Fargo, Chase, and over 61 metro cities were found to be guilty of engaging in modern redlining practices. Not 50 years ago, not 25 years ago, but in the last several years. Wells Fargo has paid out 100 of millions in settlements for redlining, Chase as well, dozens of community banks and lending institutions. It was not reported near enough but during the Great Recession subprime loans were routinely targeted specifically to black homebuyers and sold through networks like churches under a predatory guise of building wealth, even to the point of denying better loans to those that would of qualified.​
Pocket listings are a simple concept in real estate and something that is often not thought of when studying systemic discrimination and how white privilge manifests itself. It is essentielly the concept of holding homes off the market and only showing them selectively to people in your network. Here is a brief from recent research in how this segregates communities and imprints current wealth dynamics along racial lines, soemthing that almost exclusively revolves around white people:​
After fair housing legislation was passed, such explicit tactics became illegal. But beginning in the 1980s, research on real estate brokers found that these key gatekeepers in the housing market were treating Black and Latino home buyers and renters differently from Whites – by systematically showing different homes to minority versus White buyers and renters. More recent research suggests that such discrimination has been declining over the past 30 years. Yet these studies do not tell us whether real estate agents may be contributing to racial segregation in less explicit ways.
A New Research Approach
Because real estate agents handle the majority of home sale transactions in the United States, their practices matter in every detail. Are they still engaging in practices that are not obviously about race yet still contribute to racial segregation? A study I conducted in Houston, Texas set out to explore this matter, by following the activities of ten real estate agents of different races for one year, and also conducting some three dozen in-depth interviews with a racially diverse sample of real estate agents.
My key findings are highly revealing. Most basically, I learned that the real estate agents tap their social networks as primary tools for generating business. Because those networks are racially structured, white real estate agents end up working primarily with White home buyers and sellers, while Black and Latino agents deal with more diverse sets of clients.
I also learned that White real estate agents often engage in a practice they called “pocket listings” – that is, they keep personal lists of homes for sale that they do not announce publicly on the local listing services. Instead of doing such public postings, real estate agents send information on pocket listed homes to their personal and professional networks, often via email. Because White agents’ networks are overwhelmingly comprised of other whites, this means that Asian, Black, and Latino consumers are disproportionately excluded from finding out about informally listed homes for sale handled by White agents.
Overall, pocket listings, used in the context of segregated social networks, are one important way that real estate agents still contribute to racial segregation in the housing market, even when no explicit prejudice or mistreatment is observed (or even perhaps consciously intended).
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Now what is white privilege? Simply put, it is all of that stuff above. It is the way such inequities lends an inherent advantage to the group(s) at the top of the societal hierarchy. It can be overt and incredibly powerful, like the accumulated discrimination in housing and how its knockdown effects literally touch us throughout our entire lives from school to retirement and inheritance. To the lesser advantages like being privy to premiere real estate and prices that are not afforded to others, or having a name that doesn't sound black on a resume. To deny it's existence, to deny it's accrued benefits, to flatly deny we are not beneficiaries of these advantages to at least some extent in our lives is to deny the very underlying factors that produce these inequities or claim you are operating in some separate walled off world than the one everyone else operates in. It also isn't always black and white, literally. It is entirely possible for a black person to find a way to advantage themselves from this situation of inequity. For instance an institution that caters to racial grievances(say A fox News) that actively seeks out people of color under the motive to reinforce their audiences pre-existing prejudices. That would in fact be a way of advantaging from white privilege and its manifestations.

This is not to say that it is justifiable to use the term as a cudgel to beat people with, as many are upset with this woman about, it also does not necessarily mean that every white person is better off than every black person. Far from it. Certainly we know that Lebron James kids will be far better off and have far more overall advantages than a middle class white kid growing up in a middle/upper class suburb. But that doesn't mean those white kids won't benefit from some form of white privilege along their path. Like I demonstrated, it would be hard not to. Further put, it is simply one form of advantage in society.

What this is an argument for is to drop the histrionics and rationally confront these concepts that seem to have grown aversions by mostly white men, not because of a factual disagreement, but simply an emotional one. To offer up the underlying foundation of an argument that I will openly admit I feel is not well communicated and often abused in mainstream discourse. Including to the point of self-detriment to the cause it is intended to serve, which is addressing the inequity and educating society on those inequities.


 
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JimEverett

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I have addressed exactly those issues you have raised - they are generalities using large scale data and attempting to shed light on problems. Which is fine and good, and - more to the point - necessary.
I mean there are further problems with such data but if you feel frustrated now I imagine you would be exponentially so if we were to begin discussing problems of inductive reasoning in picking up a singular trait (race) to account for causation when there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of traits that on its face could also be causal.
Regardless, as some academic concept that tries to use a shorthand to refer to phenomena like these then something like "white privilege"is fine, I guess.
But when you go and apply the benefit to a class of people or to an individual without knowing much, if anything, about the individual (other than he/she is in the class) then you are ceasing to use the term as you say it should be used. It ceases to be shorthand for the general inequities you have referred and becomes a specific trait attaching to every white person. Which is wrong, and I think untrue.

And to be clear. The issues you are talking about are important issues. They deserve attention and debate, and they need solutions.
 

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So, I’m hearing both sides of this issue. And I have a question for you both.

When discussing a specific incident that seems to involve race, how do we discuss the issue at hand? If it’s not okay to reference white privilege when discussing a case where a POC is questioned for simply being somewhere, then how do we discuss it?

I get Jim’s point, but these broad averages and generalities are made up of specific instances, are they not?

It seems to me if we aren’t allowed to opine that a specific incident might be a representation of these broad cultural trends we are stifling a piece of the crucial dialogue that needs to take place.
 

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I have addressed exactly those issues you have raised - they are generalities using large scale data and attempting to shed light on problems. Which is fine and good, and - more to the point - necessary.
I mean there are further problems with such data but if you feel frustrated now I imagine you would be exponentially so if we were to begin discussing problems of inductive reasoning in picking up a singular trait (race) to account for causation when there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of traits that on its face could also be causal.
Regardless, as some academic concept that tries to use a shorthand to refer to phenomena like these then something like "white privilege"is fine, I guess.
But when you go and apply the benefit to a class of people or to an individual without knowing much, if anything, about the individual (other than he/she is in the class) then you are ceasing to use the term as you say it should be used. It ceases to be shorthand for the general inequities you have referred and becomes a specific trait attaching to every white person. Which is wrong, and I think untrue.

And to be clear. The issues you are talking about are important issues. They deserve attention and debate, and they need solutions.
Like I finished the post with, no one, me least of all is saying there are no other factors involved in determining a person's lot in life. In fact i would add including personal grit and resolve. Which is often a reactionary aversion to using this term, since people wrongfully presume it is meant to invalidate their achievements on the whole. When what it is is merely a framework to acknowledge and attribute those underlying forces that influence and affect our lives. An influence that is not set but i would continue to argue is hard to avoid and thus I do not agree with your argument that there is this large population of people that have somehow avoided this privilege altogether. Thus that it is somehow morally wrong to set the default at a white person likely having benefitted from it. It would be rather impossible tbh to avoid it in some capacity.

This entire contention arose, I'll point out again, when you and others sort of asserted that her misuse of this label by her invalidated the underlying concept. My response to you and DD, and now FWtex, is to push back on the notion that white privilege does not exist and is not widely impacted throughout society. That it is in fact hard to avoid and while rare, it is not always race dependent even. It is felt in our systems, our cultures, our norms, and our economy.
 
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JimEverett

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So, I’m hearing both sides of this issue. And I have a question for you both.

When discussing a specific incident that seems to involve race, how do we discuss the issue at hand? If it’s not okay to reference white privilege when discussing a case where a POC is questioned for simply being somewhere, then how do we discuss it?

I get Jim’s point, but these broad averages and generalities are made up of specific instances, are they not?

It seems to me if we aren’t allowed to opine that a specific incident might be a representation of these broad cultural trends we are stifling a piece of the crucial dialogue that needs to take place.
I don't think you are stifling a piece of crucial dialogue by refusing to stereotype a race.

More to your point - I don't think there is anything wrong at all with using the sort of across-the-board numbers/averages/general stats/etc. when focusing on particular problems and trying to come up with solutions.

For example - nothing wrong/incorrect about pointing out that even though drug use appears fairly similar across races the arrest rate of blacks for simple possession is much higher than all other races. And from that trying to solve the disparity.
No need to get into some silliness about claiming that white people just get out of arrests because of privilege, and it also avoids the problem of creating an "Asian privilege" (they seem to do "better" than even whites on average on many/most of the issues going to be raised; and "hispanic privilege" [relative to blacks?], a"black privilege" relative to Natives? ???????
 

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Okay. What phrase do you use to talk about a white person who feels she needs to call the police because a female African American student is napping in her own dorm’s common area?

Is there any way to talk about the possibility that race played a role in that scenario? Or is just not cool to discuss it at all unless the person calling the police comes out and says she did it because the napping woman was black? Cause nobody is ever going to admit that and that’s sorta what I was getting at when I said an important part of the discussion might be lost.

I will admit the woman who called the police may not even be consciously aware that race may have played a factor. But if we can’t talk about it, she won’t ever consider that possibility. And neither will anyone else who reads about the story. How do we move past stereotypes if even discussing them is labeled as perpetuating stereotypes?
 

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