Coach will be on Sirius. (2 Viewers)

[bornnraisedwhodat]

Larry Holder is wrong. It is a shame someone paid him to write that article.



This!



How do you know? Because he did not last in New York? New York also ran the classic 2-gap scheme that Mangini brought over from the Patriots. I am not saying that Vilma is the best fit for a 3-4 scheme, but the 1-gap scheme places him in the same role he would be in as a the will in a 4-3 scheme with a few minor differences in terms of his responsibilities.

Sorry about that. I was still working through the thread. Reading coaches comments i get it now. I still think Vilma will have a tough time but he is still an asset to our defense and he will make more plays than he gives up.

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[TCUDan]

You are referring to the 2009 version of Vilma. He is NOT THE SAME GUY now! He has progressively gotten worse each season. He is too small for 3-4 ILB in the base defense. The move to 3-4 does NOT work to the advantage of Vilma. I love Vilma. He is one of my favorite Saints...but I am a realist. I call it exactly the way I see it...and holding onto Vilma at his current pricetag will kill this teams opportunities to do ANYTHING in free agency this year. If he is willing to accept a discount, then I am fine with him staying as a nickel ILB.

I think more than me referring to the 2009 version... you're referring to the 2012 version. The one that was coming off an injury, appealing a year long suspension, missed an entire offseason, etc.

Vilma is not that old. His injury history is not extensive. He had the knee injury in 2011, which did not appear to be lingering this season.

The problem with fans is we give up on guys way to easily. It's not "hanging on" to a player... it's hanging onto a good player.

And you're talking about these guys' salaries like no player has ever restructured their contract before. Happens all the time. One of them may have to be cut, but I bet you right now Vilma and Will Smith would be more than willing to restructure. Harper is the one I see who might be less willing. But the reversion back to a Buddy Ryan-style attacking defense may make him want to stay a Saint.

Again, you're missing the point. Vilma playing WILB in this style of 3-4 is essentially the same as him playing WILL in a 4-3. He will take no more of a beating. The guy is not done, and we can moan and gripe all we want, but unless something unforeseen happens, he'll be a big part of this defense next season.

 

[Saint_Ward]

I know some people will miss the point on here regardless. But here is some bullet points of what I see happening, going largely off of what's come out of the coaches mouths:

1) Vilma is in their plans for this season. Fans do not have good perspective on player contributions. Coaches do. He played in a 3-4 alignment under GW. Payton basically said in not so many words that they will be tailoring the front to Vilma. He acknowledges Vilma's weakness at taking on blocks. They are going to keep him covered.

2) it sounds like we will be running a 1-gap 3-4 ad are trying to emulate what Houston did. That fits our personnel much better. Just bc Ryan went 2-gap at this place or that place is irrelevant. Sounds like the Spags method of pigeon holing players to fit is system is history.

3) what's the difference between this and a 4-3? Flexibility. Being flexible with your zone pressures and where that 4th and sometimes 2nd 3rd and 4th rusher comes from. You are taking your best pass rushers, as well, and widening them out.

4) The roles players find themselves playing--particularly in the back 7--will be very similar to their roles under GW. GW may have worn out his welcome in Nola, and his personality may have been abrasive... But of the many things he did do right, one of them was playing players to their strengths.

5) "I think Vilma is gone. He's not good anymore". Well sounds like the head coach disagrees. It's easy to forget that before this season, guys like Vilma, Jenkins, Greer, Harper were having some pretty good seasons. Sounds like we're getting back to what the players do well.

6) And I think that's coming from Payton first. He said he's coming in here with an 06 mentality. I see him being much more involved with the defensive personnel and gameplanning than he was when GW was here.

7) Vilma, W Smith, Harper... Everyone's writing them off. I think that's jumping the gun big time. These are good players. Starters. They are not too many years removed from the pro bowl. None of them will be unceremoniously shown the door. Now cap does come into play. Vilma will restructure. Smith will be willing to... He may have to be cut and potentially brought back under a min lower number if he still wants to play for the saints. Harper will be difficult to restructure. He's young. He could wt this money elsewhere (yes, yes he could). We'll see what happens there.

I agree that Vilma is still a good player. he battled injury and almost a half year suspension / PUP.

I think he'd be fine as the WILL ILB so long as we are sticking with a 1 gap, or at least off set alignment where the WDE is aligned like a 3tech taking the guard.

However, I would be cautious about taking Payton's answer as confirmation that Vilma will be on the team. I said this in another thread. Vilma is under contract now. He answered a question about players roles that are LB's. He used Vilma and Lofton as examples, because of their different body types. Vilma would need to be a Will ILB where he's not in the guard bubble. He didn't say, we will use Vilma this way.

So, he is simply answering the direct question as to how a guy like Vilma could work in a 3-4 alignment.

Again, Vilma's cap number is the problem. It can be worked out though. We will not enter training camp with Hawthorne, Lofton, and Vilma without some major restructuring. I really think one of them is as good as gone. And I'll gladly eat crow later if I"m wrong.

 

[TCUDan]

I agree that Vilma is still a good player. he battled injury and almost a half year suspension / PUP.

I think he'd be fine as the WILL ILB so long as we are sticking with a 1 gap, or at least off set alignment where the WDE is aligned like a 3tech taking the guard.

However, I would be cautious about taking Payton's answer as confirmation that Vilma will be on the team. I said this in another thread. Vilma is under contract now. He answered a question about players roles that are LB's. He used Vilma and Lofton as examples, because of their different body types. Vilma would need to be a Will ILB where he's not in the guard bubble. He didn't say, we will use Vilma this way.

So, he is simply answering the direct question as to how a guy like Vilma could work in a 3-4 alignment.

Again, Vilma's cap number is the problem. It can be worked out though. We will not enter training camp with Hawthorne, Lofton, and Vilma without some major restructuring. I really think one of them is as good as gone. And I'll gladly eat crow later if I"m wrong.

You're right... they have some cap issues to work out and Vilma could be gone. But what convinced me how Payton didn't say something like "Jon Vilma is a good player and can play in any defense" or something vague/generalized. He talked about tailoring the defense to Vilma. He acknowledged Vilma's weakness when it comes to playing uncovered over a guard. He went into detail.

I think Payton/Ryan/Vilma have already talked about this. I think Vilma will be willing to restructure, as will Will Smith. Can we keep them all? I don't know. But I know that most of the veteran guys will want to stick around and be willing to do what it takes to make that happen.

The thing about Vilma, Will Smith... these aren't ego guys. Harper, again... I don't know, he just signed a new contract, he may not be willing to restructure. But at this point it's all speculation.

All I'm saying is that from listening to Payton, sounds like Vilma is firmly in the plans for next season. And it makes sense.

 

[TCUDan]

Before you get rid of a player, you better have someone who can replace his production, leadership, and intelligence out there on the field. Vilma is a lot harder to replace than most on this board want to think.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

Before you get rid of a player, you better have someone who can replace his production, leadership, and intelligence out there on the field. Vilma is a lot harder to replace than most on this board want to think.

This. And our D showed improvement when he came back last season

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[tru_coolbrees]

I love Vilma to death but he would not last in a 3-4.

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This guy says size doesn't matter.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

This guy says size doesn't matter.

Go back and read my post. I didnt realize we were 1 gaping.

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[stevend]

He is the Ray Lewis of the Saints. Aging but the guy with football smarts and drives the other guys on the defense.

I found this funny because, the aging Vilma is talked about so much in this thread.

Vilma is 7 years younger than Ray Lewis.

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

About the Vilma to the outside thing, funny. NFL.com made a twitter post talking about how Payton said that Vilma will play on the outside of the 3-4 and guys from SI, and PFF we like "what the heck". I basically sent a series of tweets to those guys (which got retweeted or replied to) and people understood. Then NFL.com took the tweet down and changed the article. The fact that Holder thought that Vilma would play outside makes me wonder how much they really know football (especially considering its their jobs) - I mean I enjoy his reporting and he seems to do a good job, but I'd be nice if we had a scout or someone covering our team who could talk some things schematically.

As for Vilma and Smith restructuring, forget that. Restructure means that you move money, they flat out need to take paycuts. I love both of those guys and love what they've done for our organization but they are holding us hostage with their salaries.

I still think Vilma can play to be honest, even if it's only in nickel (not sure how he would feel about that). Super smart guy who looks like he can still move and will probably be even better once he has a full season of not rehabbing and just being a football player (OTA's, Training Camp, etc). Vilma has rare football intelligence that you don't find with a lot of players. I'm convinced that if he had better size and none of the health problems, he would be a potential Hall of Famer.

As for Smith, I no longer think he is a good player. He doesn't bring anything to the table that we can't get from a FA. He's not some super intelligent player who can get to the QB even though he's lost a step, he hasn't been a good pass rusher since I don't know how long ago, and he an average run player. I know we all love the guy but regardless of scheme or not, Smith wasn't winning 1 on 1 matches and I refuse to blame Spags for that. I'm not a big PFF guy and I don't really like using their matrices as the law, but I wonder where they have him as a pass rusher over the past 3 or 4 years, pretty sure it's not good. The best thing he provides at this point seems to be mistake free football (like setting the edge so a RB doesn't take it to the house on us), but that isn't irreplaceable.

 

[TCUDan]

Maybe I'll get on Twitter... don't know how so many people heard "Outside linebacker"...

 

[Beerman84]

If your complaint is Vilma's age, then I have nothing to offer. If you do not believe he can play well in a 3-4 system, then I am simply saying that it depends on the scheme. I know others in this thread have suggested that he will not fit our scheme because he did not work out well for the Jets in a 3-4. And I am trying to make the case that the Jets ran a 2-gap scheme under Mangini, not the 1-gap scheme we are running.



Precisely! In a 2-gap scheme, the front can be a bit more symmetric with the NT in a 0-tech over the center. The backers are then lined up over the guards, sort of like the scheme you see in New England.



I think we will certainly draft a NT at some point. I do not, however, believe it is a "huge" need. Bunkley is quite capable of playing the 3-4 NT role in a 1-gap scheme. Same deal for Akiem Hicks. I would like to see us draft Brandon Williams, and am hoping that he will be there in the third round.

Bunkley was one of the top NT's in the league in Denver's 3-4 the year before we signed him. He's the least of our concerns.

 

[60minutes]

Bunkley was one of the top NT's in the league in Denver's 3-4 the year before we signed him. He's the least of our concerns.

That was sort of my point.

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

That was sort of my point.

Bunkley was one of the top NT's in the league in Denver's 3-4 the year before we signed him. He's the least of our concerns.

I don't understand how that is possible. Bunkley only played one year for the Broncos - they year that John Fox started coaching the team, also the year that Dennis Allen left the Saints and became the DC there. Fox and Allen are both 4-3 guys and I believe they ran a 4-3 that year. What am I missing?

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

Maybe I'll get on Twitter... don't know how so many people heard "Outside linebacker"...

You'd love some of the NFL draft talk that you hear there. I'd say about 95% of the people I follow have something to do with football, with about over half of them being scouts. Really good range of opinions on there.

The best thing is that you get to talk to them and have back and forths. Same with the national guys - I've talked to Pete Prisco quite a bit and he's not nearly as bad as people thing. Give it a try.