Comey Comments on ISIS (Turned into a Nazi Argument) (1 Viewer)

Saint_Ward

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Side note, in one of the linked articles about 18 states asking for cyber help from the DHS, I saw this nugget from Comey.

Comey spoke of the increased threat of domestic attacks as the US bombing campaign against ISIS prompts foreign fighters to return home.

"The so called (ISIS) caliphate will be crushed -- the challenge will be through the fingers of that crush are going to come hundreds of very, very dangerous people," Comey said. "They will not all die on the battlefield in Syria and Iraq. There will be a terrorist diaspora sometime in the next two to five years like we have never seen before."
Sorry for the thread jack, but that's interesting to me.

Well, since my small thread jack turned into a full fledged threat jack, I removed all of the comments from Chuck's topic and made this its own thing. Feel free to quibble here.
 
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SystemShock

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"The so called (ISIS) caliphate will be crushed -- the challenge will be through the fingers of that crush are going to come hundreds of very, very dangerous people," Comey said. "They will not all die on the battlefield in Syria and Iraq. There will be a terrorist diaspora sometime in the next two to five years like we have never seen before."
It is mind boggling, people that high up in government still think they can kill an ideology on a battlefield, and cannot comprehend that, because there is a battlefield, the ideology keeps growing, and taking deeper roots.
 

JimEverett

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It is mind boggling, people that high up in government still think they can kill an ideology on a battlefield, and cannot comprehend that, because there is a battlefield, the ideology keeps growing, and taking deeper roots.
You don;t think we killed the Nazi ideology on the battlefield?
 

SystemShock

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Kidding myself for actually thinking you would provide a halfway intelligent answer? - yes. Absolutely yes.
While I appreciate condescension, especially from someone as special as you, really, I want to believe you are just joking, I really do, because if you are not... but I want to make sure and ask you, do you understand the difference between an ideology and a State that professes that ideology?

Let me ask you also,
Have you ever heard of the Ku Klux Klan?
Have you ever heard of Aryan Nations?
Do you know what a skinhead is?
Do you know that just in the US alone, there are 100+ self professed neo-Nazi groups, and another 100+ white supremacy groups?

The ideology is alive and well.
 
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Saint_Ward

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You don;t think we killed the Nazi ideology on the battlefield?
Where's the line you draw? Sure, Nazi's aren't invading Poland and gassing/cremating Jews.

But, are there hate crimes perpetuated by Nazi's or neo-Nazi's? Are there attacks?

The point is one person can be very dangerous. That's something our society just has to accept. So, the ideology will never die, we will never be "safe", but we can limit their damage, their size, and we can be 'safer'.

That's exactly what Comey is saying though. Hundreds of dangerous people will go through our fingers, so we have to be vigilant. But, the overall structure of the organization, the major money, the major weapons/army in the ME can be defeated. Can they create something else? of course, that's how ISIS even started. But we can disrupt and functionally destroy the group.
 

JimEverett

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but I want to make sure and ask you, do you understand the difference between an ideology and a State that professes that ideology?
I am not sure how specific you want to be as to what you meant by the specific ideology you referenced initially - but I have to assume that you at least meant the ideology espoused by ISIS. That is a state. It controls areas in Iraq and Syria, has/had a relatively functioning government. It might not be internationally recognized, but it is a state by virtually any definition.

Let me ask you also,
Have you ever heard of the Ku Klux Klan?
Have you ever heard of Aryan Nations?
Do you know what a skinhead is?
Do you know that just in the US alone, there are 100+ self professed neo-Nazi groups, and another 100+ white supremacy groups?

The ideology is alive and well.
We can quibble over the semantics of "killed" but the idea that given the state and popularity of the Nazi ideology around the world in the 1930s versus what it is today and has been like since the end of WW2 in the countries involved in that war (where the battlefields were) there cannot be any question that a view stating that
SystemShock said:
the ideology keeps growing, and taking deeper roots
is ridiculous in its stupidity.
 

JimEverett

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Where's the line you draw? Sure, Nazi's aren't invading Poland and gassing/cremating Jews.

But, are there hate crimes perpetuated by Nazi's or neo-Nazi's? Are there attacks?

The point is one person can be very dangerous. That's something our society just has to accept. So, the ideology will never die, we will never be "safe", but we can limit their damage, their size, and we can be 'safer'.

That's exactly what Comey is saying though. Hundreds of dangerous people will go through our fingers, so we have to be vigilant. But, the overall structure of the organization, the major money, the major weapons/army in the ME can be defeated. Can they create something else? of course, that's how ISIS even started. But we can disrupt and functionally destroy the group.
Sure - like I said above we can debate what is meant by "killed" - but the clear point Systemshock was trying to make was that fighting an ideology on the battlefield only strengthens it, and such a view is pure craziness and is not born out by history.
I mean look at Germany today - flying the Nazi flag is illegal. In virtually every corner of the western world espousing Nazi support gets you ostracized and shunned. The power of the ideology is not even close to a millionth of the power the ideology had before it was destroyed on the battlefield. Practically speaking the ideology was killed on the battlefield
 

SystemShock

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Hundreds of dangerous people will go through our fingers, so we have to be vigilant.
It's not just the hundreds of dangerous people who will go through our fingers, but the potential thousands who will heed the call because they'd feel threaten and follow the ideology.
 

SystemShock

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I am not sure how specific you want to be as to what you meant by the specific ideology you referenced initially - but I have to assume that you at least meant the ideology espoused by ISIS.
Oh, you have to assume, uh? :jpshakehead:

That is a state. It controls areas in Iraq and Syria, has/had a relatively functioning government. It might not be internationally recognized, but it is a state by virtually any definition.
ISIS is a State, based upon an ideology. ISIS is not the ideology.

We can quibble over the semantics of "killed" but the idea that given the state and popularity of the Nazi ideology around the world in the 1930s versus what it is today and has been like since the end of WW2 in the countries involved in that war (where the battlefields were) there cannot be any question that a view stating that is ridiculous in its stupidity.
I am surprised, you are the one always quibbling with sematics.

Just go ahead, keep on with the insults.

Please, enlighten me,
What ideology does the KuKlux Klan profess?
What ideology do Aryan Nations profess?
What ideology does the National Socialist Party profess?

I don't know what gave you the idea that ideology=State. But whatever...
 

not2rich

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Oh, you have to assume, uh? :jpshakehead:


ISIS is a State, based upon an ideology. ISIS is not the ideology.


I am surprised, you are the one always quibbling with sematics.

Just go ahead, keep on with the insults.

Please, enlighten me,
What ideology does the KuKlux Klan profess?
What ideology do Aryan Nations profess?
What ideology does the National Socialist Party profess?

I don't know what gave you the idea that ideology=State. But whatever...
I think if you consider the Nazis as a political party, governing power, or military force, Jim is correct. They were exterminated in each of those respects.

I also don't think Nazis/ISIS is an apples to apples comparison.
 

JimEverett

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ISIS is a State, based upon an ideology. ISIS is not the ideology.
LMAO. A distinction with what relevance?




Please, enlighten me,
What ideology does the KuKlux Klan profess?
Given that the KKK has largely been destroyed it is tough to say. When the ideology they espoused actually had some degree of power it was a racist Christian (and therefore not NAZI) terrorist group

What ideology do Aryan Nations profess?
The Aryan Nations, again - a group that is virtually destroyed, is a group that espouses some weird Christian theology that claims white people who settled in Nordic countries are one of the twelve tribes of Israel - again, no Nazi ideology espoused there.
What ideology does the National Socialist Party profess?
I am not sure. You talking about the left-wing British party that went defunct during WW2?

I don't know what gave you the idea that ideology=State. But whatever...
you are the one trying to draw this distinction and make it mean something for our purposes. I do not care if you are talking about a state espousing the ideology or the ideology itself. Nazism was effectively killed on the battlefield of WW2. How did Nazism keep growing and take deeper roots in the aftermath of WW2?
 

SystemShock

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I think if you consider the Nazis as a political party, governing power, or military force, Jim is correct. They were exterminated in each of those respects.
I know what the National Socialist German Workers' Party was and what they did. However, it just seems it is extremely hard to understand they espoused an ideology, that they were NOT the ideology, that they did not start this ideology, and that the ideology they espoused did not die with them, but it is alive and well today, even though Nazi Germany was defeated.
 
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Saint_Ward

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So, I moved all that here. The thread jack was going on too long. Either that or take it to PM.

But let's keep this disagreement civil please.
 

SystemShock

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LMAO. A distinction with what relevance?
You obviously do not understand what an ideology is. Here:
i·de·ol·o·gy
[ˌīdēˈäləjē, ˌidēˈäləjē]
NOUN
1. a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy:
"the ideology of republicanism"
synonyms: beliefs · ideas · ideals · principles · ethics · morals ·
doctrine · creed · credo · faith · teaching · theory · philosophy · tenets · canon(s) · conviction(s) · persuasion · ism
archaic
2. the science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.

Given that the KKK has largely been destroyed it is tough to say. When the ideology they espoused actually had some degree of power it was a racist Christian (and therefore not NAZI) terrorist group
"Largely been destroyed" not the same as "eradicated" or "erased from the face of the Earth". Even then, the Klan is but an example of the living ideology; there are much much more who still espouse the ideology, who do not belong to the Klan. Same with people who seee Neo-Nazi groups and agree with their ideology, but are just not willing to join them. Will they ever act upon it as a State? That, we don't know, although we do know that individuals like Anders Breivik do act upon it; we do know that they beat up people in the name of their organizations.

The Aryan Nations, again - a group that is virtually destroyed, is a group that espouses some weird Christian theology that claims white people who settled in Nordic countries are one of the twelve tribes of Israel - again, no Nazi ideology espoused there.
And yet, there they are. a white supremacist grup, are they not?. And as stated above, we really don't know the actual numbers of people who espouse the ideology.

I am not sure. You talking about the left-wing British party that went defunct during WW2?
Uninformed, I see. Here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_(United_States)


I do not care if you are talking about a state espousing the ideology or the ideology itself.
That is for sure, but you should, because there is a distinction.

How did Nazism keep growing and take deeper roots in the aftermath of WW2?
And yet again, I have no idea how many people espouse the ideology... they all don't walk around the streets with their red arm bands. I don't know if you have been paying attention to this election cycle, but there have been indications that there is a large group of people, many, many more than just the ones who claim to be members of a specific group, that do espouse at least some of this ideology.

I will say, though, that comment was specifically directed at the current situation with ISIS.
 

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