Consequenses of an alternative energy source? (1 Viewer)

FWtex

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Looking for peoples theory on what would happen if/when oil and gas are no longer a primary energy source. It is many peoples theory that the alternative fuels have intentionally been squashed by current energy companies and the gov't because of the negative affects it will have.

Questions I have?

How many jobs in the US is a result of oil and gas energy?
What is the annual payroll related to oil and gas?
What is the tax revenue on oil and gas in all markets(exploration,refining,shipping,consumer sales)?
What will be the affect on our economy and the world economy (trade balances) without oil and gas?
Where would those left unemployed from Oil and Gas go for employment?


I found this post through a search while seeing if this topic has been discussed.
http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30087&highlight=energy
 

Taurus

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Interesting question. Of course, had they the means, blacksmiths might well have asked similar questions 100 years ago.

As far as the big picture is concerned, the point is the energy. The means of production/distribution, etc. are secondary at best.

We are already experiencing the flipside of the issue right this very moment. Oil and gas companies are reaping record profits and doing quite well for themselves, yet the rest of the economy is suffering. So that sector obviously isn't enough to pull the rest of us up with them. Therefore, a new energy source that improves the overall economy at the expense of oil&gas is a no-brainer.

In brief: "**** 'em."
 
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Interesting question. Of course, had they the means, blacksmiths might well have asked similar questions 100 years ago.

As far as the big picture is concerned, the point is the energy. The means of production/distribution, etc. are secondary at best.

We are already experiencing the flipside of the issue right this very moment. Oil and gas companies are reaping record profits and doing quite well for themselves, yet the rest of the economy is suffering. So that sector obviously isn't enough to pull the rest of us up with them. Therefore, a new energy source that improves the overall economy at the expense of oil&gas is a no-brainer.

In brief: "**** 'em."

And just think of all the jobs that would be needed if a new energy source were to replace oil and gas. Homes would have to be refitted, factories would have to be built to produce new kinds of engines, etc., etc., etc.. Has there ever been a technological revolution where all of the sudden the economy failed? I would say it's likely quite the opposite.

If there is a conspiracy to supress new technology (I don't believe there is), it is probably being perpetrated by those whose economic interests rely on the supremacy of petroleum. I don't see why China, for instance, wouldn't pursue alternative energy sources if they were practical.
 
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SWJJ

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ethanol is NOT an economically viable option, he fact that this agenda is pushed on us is ludicrus!

Biodisel has the same pollutant biproducts as petro, you are just cutting out the oil and gas guys, maybe some cost savings, but NOT a long term solution.

Fuel cells, somekind of hydrogen technology He ^3 perhaps, maybe even solar..


No way to tell what will evolve into our next energy, Relaistically it will not happen in the next 40 years, go buy exxon stock.
 

Pure Energy

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In my opinion the emphasis shouldn't be on the adoption of an alternative energy source but rather building an infrastructure and supporting processes to reduces our dependence on oil/gas. For instance, make it more desirable and advantageous to use mass transit over personal automobiles. Provide incentives to reduce home energy consumption.

An analogy that comes to mind is helping someone lower their weight through exercise (versus reducing calorie consumption). Great idea; however, what very often happens is that there is no weight lost at all and in many instances there is weight gain because calorie consumption increases. In the case of solar energy, what may happen is that total energy consumption remains the same (or increases) with most of it coming from fossil fuels and the remainder coming from solar. Ideally, some combination of the two is best; however, the starting point is to reduce unnecessary energy consumption.

The move in this direction alone will open up tremendous opportunities here in the U.S. for the industries that will build and support mass transit and retro-fitting homes to make them more energy efficient.
 

Rob Beaux

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ethanol is NOT an economically viable option, he fact that this agenda is pushed on us is ludicrus!
What changed your mind JJ. I remember arguing with you on this last year or so. :)

back to topic.

its not going to be an overnight....Bam here's your new technology. Its going to be phased in. Jobs will adjust people will switch to a newer job and houses will be built to use the new tech. Solar is a viable option now, you would just have to convince people to change there lifestyles drastically. No more plasma TV just to watch the news but a smaller TV thats not a power hog would be needed. Houses would have to be constructed different to make up for a reduced heating and cooling ability. Its expensive but possible with life style changes.
 

Blakejam

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Problem with ethanol is that it is corn based. As the demand for ethanol increases less will be used to create food products which will cause prices to spike......as there is a very limited supply of corn. Also imagine what would happen to ethanol prices if there was a drought or some kind of crop disease that would wipe out a large percentage of fields.
 

geauxboy

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Besides getting off the oil dependencies, there are things that could be done now to help curb the excess usage of oil.

Commuting - The fewer cars, the better. Less pollution also. Not to mention money saved.
*Energy saved at the refining plants because less oil is used
*Public transportation
*Walk/Bike

Less energy waste at home - Turn the dang lights off. Also, there are ways that you can use the Earth/Sun/wind/rain to your advantage.
*Earth - Use mud as insulation (those new mud houses that are eco friendly)
*Sun - Make solar paneling cheaper and provide incentive for homeowners to have them
*Wind - Design houses to use wind to your advantage with circulation (also to harness and retain energy itself) and hot/cold air distribution at the right times so less heat or a/c is used.
*Rain - Recycle rain water for toilet and hot water heater. Less energy to pump the water from wherever it comes form.

Less energy waste at the workplace
*Turn you lights out as you leave the office everytime you leave the office
*Turn your pc off at the end of the day
*The lights on Times Square came on before anything else did after the blackout. Yet, they told us to not use energy until everything was stable. Why does Times Square get power (where barely anyone is living or working at the time) and we have to suffer at home?

Even buying consumer goods should help too. Less demand, less production.

The consequences can be great in some areas, but I think the worst part of transferring to an alternative (which was around before modern energy technology) is the energy consumers themselves. Our own minds. Change happens and most are afraid of it. Change your way of thinking and be more cognizant of your energy usage and what it's source is and you'll probably change several habits of your own. Albeit small individual changes, but if enough people did it, it would have to be impactual enough to make a difference.

Also, as mentioned above, make incentives for people. In Germany, they encourage people to have solar panel "farms" and they sell their energy to whomever and whatever energy is left over is sold back to the grid. It's a win/win situation. Those that buy your solar energy pay a fixed rate that is a 20 year commitment deal. Cheaper and cleaner and everyone is happier.

Also, cars that run on veggie oil or even water. Until a better and easily renewable source is found, you can't beat used veggie oil or water.

IMHO, I think they have used this ethanol to their advantage. Almost as if they are making you suffer for even bringing up an alternative suggestion. There are other sources or atleast other ways to treat this ethanol idea, but we're being duped into thinking that it's not feasible.
 
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Blakejam

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Another way to decrease oil consumption is decrease the amount of plastics that are used......there are so many every day objects we use that are petro based products.
 

geauxboy

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Another way to decrease oil consumption is decrease the amount of plastics that are used......there are so many every day objects we use that are petro based products.

Like pharmaceutical drugs?
 

bigdaddysaints

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but boy wouldn't it be nice to bring the middle east economy to its knees......
 

LSSpam

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How many jobs in the US is a result of oil and gas energy?
What is the annual payroll related to oil and gas?
What is the tax revenue on oil and gas in all markets(exploration,refining,shipping,consumer sales)?
What will be the affect on our economy and the world economy (trade balances) without oil and gas?
Where would those left unemployed from Oil and Gas go for employment?

For starters, all of those jobs would undoubtly be replaced (probably many times over) by a native alternative energy industry.

But beyond which, the amount of jobs, revenue, economic damage, etc, caused by the current energy costs vastly, vastly exceeds the demands of that very narrow industry.
 

Sabine

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Good questions FWTex. I don't have specific numbers but ....... The object is to become energy independent (from foreign oil), so that doesn't eliminate our domestic oil & gas industry. In theory we could become energy independent without losing any domestic oil & gas jobs.
 

varanook

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I don't really believe in conspiracies but IIRC the oil lobby is one of the largest. Says a little something to me.

It's doubtful that oil jobs would be phased out immediately. There will still be a need for fossil fuels for a long time to come because many, many , many everyday items are made with plastic. Anything plastic=petro products. Just think about how much plastic is used for.

Fossil fuels are the easiest, cheapest and most efficient ways of producing energy period, period, period. They are the basic platform of all our industrial processes. Retro fitting all of that would take a very long time for both cost and time reasons.

Everone who says we want to get off foreign oil is right. That won't make us oil independent just independent of foreign sources for our energy needs.

Some options are viable public transportation. The technology exists already in other countries. We could use it if the people of this country actually wanted it. Less suburbs, smaller houses, green houses that others talked about above, solar and nuclear. Nuclear is the most viable option presently but it comes with real security risks.

All of that aside, we are more likely to create jobs from a tech boom that lose them.

I wish the governemnt would subsidize useful public transportation as opposed to corn ethanol.

I would like to see more local level things than anything else. I don't know the economic viability but it would be nice to move to a more local ideal.
 
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