Consequenses of an alternative energy source? (1 Viewer)

[Pure Energy]

Redsigning homes? I dread walking into the dark cave built in the 70's so hopefully that does not resurface. A different method of cooling and heating is a logical change and available today but people have to adapt to it. Also, the spray foam insulation is an awesome product as long it doesn't come back as a toxant like asbestos. I spoke with a custom builder on a 4500 sq.ft home that used Spray foam. It adds about 5% to the cost but in that one particular home the cooling and heating cost will be about $250.

I have to believe less than 0.001% of buyers know the energy efficiency of their home before the buy it (I'm not talking about looking at previous owner's utility bills but having an energy audit done before closing). Homes are sold based on location, floor plan, ceramic tile, hardwood floors, granite counter tops, chandeliers, etc. If I ever buy another home, I will pay a few hundred dollars and get an energy audit in addition to the typical inspection. If I'm having a custom home built, I'll ensure it meets energy star home guidelines.

NJ just got serious about energy efficiency. I'm working with a NJ Clean energy contractor who has testimonials on his website of 50% savings without replacing three of the most costly items--HVAC system, windows or water heaters. When I initially contacted the contractor the NJ program was rebating 10% of the cost of remediation; some time in February the rebate shot up to 50 percent. In order to qualify for the rebate the work must enhance efficiency by 25% (reduce your power consumption by 25%).

So for me...my utility bills are in the $700 average range; I'm expecting a minimum savings of $175 with a top-end of $350/month.


Just as an FYI, according to the Contractor I'm working with, here is how most homeowners utility bills are distributed:

60% - Heating and Cooling
30% - Water Heater
10% - Lights, TV, Computers, etc.

 

[Blakejam]

You still arent getting it are you.

It takes MORE OIL to make glass or paper than if you just use oil to make plastic. So if you want to stop oil in the way of packages, then what will 20oz soda bottles be made of ? Plastics in bottles are actually more "green" than using paper.

What Shawn says is true over packaging is a problem but plastics for packages hardly make a debt in the overall petro chemical use. The thing is oil and gas by-products are used in just about everything. Chemical feed stocks are converted into resins for computer chips, epoxies and other synthetics materials. Thats where an absence( or reduction) of oil will hurt not in transportation.

I did more research on the topic and your right.

I get it......no need to be condescending

 

[FWtex]

i just think the convenience store industry or service stations will de out, we will have candy companies losing money. Helicopter pilots and guys who work off shore. tug boats and New Orleans as a port can die down. no more sending fuel and such up river. thats if we have fusion power.

i think we want to suck the middle east dry then when the USA has all the oil people buy from us and let the world economy collapse while the USA is ok. we will slowly merge into new energy. lets just have china and russia use all the oil and watch them collapse b/c they are so dependent and have them buy our oil. we will become very rich. in the meantime we can learn from the other countries mistakes as to how to run a new energy economy. this will be like the industrial revolution where we learned from Europe's mistakes.

This is the thought I had in mind when I started the thread. If Oil and Gas were replaced what would happen?
La. still hasn't recovered from the 80's oil bust and this scenario La. would practically be a shutdown. What about other areas like Houston, California, etc. How far down the line does the oil and gas industry feed?

On another note. There was a show on the science channel yesterday about the world when humans are no longer on earth. (odd theory because somehow pets were still alive in this show) the one thing that caught my attention was that most of the world electricity would shut down within hours and days but SW United States would still have electricity for years because of the hoover dam. The hydoelectric plant could literally run itself without any human interaction.

 

[FWtex]

You still arent getting it are you.

It takes MORE OIL to make glass or paper than if you just use oil to make plastic. So if you want to stop oil in the way of packages, then what will 20oz soda bottles be made of ? Plastics in bottles are actually more "green" than using paper.

What Shawn says is true over packaging is a problem but plastics for packages hardly make a debt in the overall petro chemical use. The thing is oil and gas by-products are used in just about everything. Chemical feed stocks are converted into resins for computer chips, epoxies and other synthetics materials. Thats where an absence( or reduction) of oil will hurt not in transportation.

I may be wrong but isn't the patroleum products used to make plastics basically the "scraps" from refining oil? Seems I saw a pie chart on the usage of a barrel of oil and this was a very small piece.

 

[FWtex]

FWTex, an NEV is a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle. They are usually smaller, light weight and run entirely on electricity. Because of their battery dependency, they will not support some of the safety features that Fed regs require for high speeds. So, they are limited to 25 mph with just the basic safety features (seat belts, windshield wipers, lights, etc. - no air bags). They're also restricted to travel on roads with speed limits of 35 mph, which would work for most inner city commuters. Some places like Montana have raised the speed limit for NEVs to 35, which allows them to travel on roads with speed limits of 45 mph (I think). Some NEVs look like glorified golf carts. You may have seen some on university campuses or used by municipal employees. Others have quite unusual designs. The one below, the ZENN (Zero Emissions, No Noise), would IMO be more accepted for inner city commuting if those things listed in my earlier post were addressed. I think the sales price is around $13,000.


You mentioned that Americans may not be willing to adjust their behavior, and I suspect you're right. We have become so consumer and brand oriented . We're like 2 and 3 YO olds, who's identities are so tied to possessions. A 3 YO clips a red towel around his neck and zooms around the room, and he IS Superman. Too often, it gets ugly when someone tries to take his red towel away and threatens his identity. Same is true about Americans and their cars.

Thanks. If they could change the traffic infrastructure to make these vehicles safe I would have no problem driving one around. As it stand now though, I don't want to be on the same streets and driving through intersections where a driver in a F150 come speeding through.

Wouldn't mind seeing a community designed for this type living where our "traditional" vehicles are limited to specific roads while the majority of the community is served by these NEVs. It will take a new approach to traffic.

 

[Severum]

This is the thought I had in mind when I started the thread. If Oil and Gas were replaced what would happen?
La. still hasn't recovered from the 80's oil bust and this scenario La. would practically be a shutdown. What about other areas like Houston, California, etc. How far down the line does the oil and gas industry feed?

California and Texas will be fine, but Louisiana definitely needs to diversify its economy. We should use the upcoming royalty revenue to attract other industries and educate the workforce.

The long term benefits of energy independence far outweigh any short term losses.

 

[Bishop]

Offshore jobs aren't far removed from those of construction. Many are employed as pipe-fitters, mechanics electricians, welders, and crane operators. I'm sure 1/4 of oil rig personnel are roustabout/ laborers. Some of these and other technical jobs could be absorbed rebuilding NO, chemical plants, and the industry that alternative fuels would create. Building more cleaner power plants could be necessary to absorb the demand of electric cars. One nuclear plant project creates many jobs. There's always shipyards along the Gulf to work at.

 

[robsmith32]

I have to believe less than 0.001% of buyers know the energy efficiency of their home before the buy it (I'm not talking about looking at previous owner's utility bills but having an energy audit done before closing). Homes are sold based on location, floor plan, ceramic tile, hardwood floors, granite counter tops, chandeliers, etc. If I ever buy another home, I will pay a few hundred dollars and get an energy audit in addition to the typical inspection. If I'm having a custom home built, I'll ensure it meets energy star home guidelines.

NJ just got serious about energy efficiency. I'm working with a NJ Clean energy contractor who has testimonials on his website of 50% savings without replacing three of the most costly items--HVAC system, windows or water heaters. When I initially contacted the contractor the NJ program was rebating 10% of the cost of remediation; some time in February the rebate shot up to 50 percent. In order to qualify for the rebate the work must enhance efficiency by 25% (reduce your power consumption by 25%).

So for me...my utility bills are in the $700 average range; I'm expecting a minimum savings of $175 with a top-end of $350/month.


Just as an FYI, according to the Contractor I'm working with, here is how most homeowners utility bills are distributed:

60% - Heating and Cooling
30% - Water Heater
10% - Lights, TV, Computers, etc.

wow your energy costs are high up there.

my top end is already in the $325 range with all combined. and that is with central ac/heat, and I'm really interested in refitting to a geothermal setup with a dual fuel heatpump/furnace.


as far as using a small tv, LCD is very energy efficient compared to any tube product like projection or CRT.

 

[kooldak]

I may be wrong but isn't the patroleum products used to make plastics basically the "scraps" from refining oil? Seems I saw a pie chart on the usage of a barrel of oil and this was a very small piece.

Almost. I wouldn't call it scraps - more like branches of a tree - but intentional byproducts of the refining process are used to make various plastics and a lot of other everyday things we use. It is a complex process, but basically, you're right.

If we quit cracking fossil fuels to make gasoline, propylene, ethylene, propane, etc., we also lose the chemicals that are the building blocks for an awful lot of stuff we use daily. Things that make our life a lot easier. For example, coolants for our air conditioners. The components in that computer you're using. Clothes that you wear. Chemicals to process the foods you eat. And on and on and on...

IMHO, we cannot eliminate the dependency on fossil fuels unless we want to drastically change how we live. We can REDUCE dependency, but as the OP indicates, there will be significant life style side effects.

 

[Taurus]

Strangely enough, Sabine, Alaska is ready for NEV's right now. (Provided they run well at extreme low temps) Most every business in Kenai had a 'hitching post' affair out front with electric plugins on it. For oilpan heaters and the like. Just move that technology south and your NEV has juice pretty much wherever you go.

But the Holy Grail is still an electric with 85mph top speed and 200+ mile range. Get that in for under $25k and you're gold.

 

[geauxboy]

But electric cars still need energy. It's a start, but I don't think it really changes how much fossil fuel is needed for cars. Sure, the pollution would go down, but how much more energy is used or saved if the majority of people have electric cars? I actually don't know. If it's equivalent to say recharging an iPod or cellphone, then it's much more feasible and a viable option.

If you use Brown's gas, then not only do you take out the "need" for electricity (for the most part), then you've truly taken yourself off the dependency of oil (for transportation). I've seen the conversion kits run between $60 - $600. No electricity. No pollution.

As far as homes go, I have to find the site, but there are organic options for insulation. Combine that with better insulated windows and doors, and designing the home to take the best advantage of the elements. I know there are some very good artificial insulations, but they still need oil.

In the end, we may not ween ourselves completely off of fossil fuels, but to take away the utter complete dependence is a start.

 

[Severum]

But electric cars still need energy. It's a start, but I don't think it really changes how much fossil fuel is needed for cars. Sure, the pollution would go down, but how much more energy is used or saved if the majority of people have electric cars? I actually don't know. If it's equivalent to say recharging an iPod or cellphone, then it's much more feasible and a viable option.

If you use Brown's gas, then not only do you take out the "need" for electricity (for the most part), then you've truly taken yourself off the dependency of oil (for transportation). I've seen the conversion kits run between $60 - $600. No electricity. No pollution.

You still need electricity to electrolyze the water to create Brown's gas. Burning the gas in an inefficient IC engine turns most of that electricity into waste heat as well.

The US would be completely energy independent if the majority of people had plug-in hybrid electric vehicles with 20-30mi electric range.

 

[geauxboy]

You still need electricity to electrolyze the water to create Brown's gas. Burning the gas in an inefficient IC engine turns most of that electricity into waste heat as well.

The US would be completely energy independent if the majority of people had plug-in hybrid electric vehicles with 20-30mi electric range.

True. I did mispeak hihi about no longer needing electricity for Brown's Gas, but it sure does cut down on the usage. Anything to lessen the usage and the need is a good start IMO.

 

[FWtex]

True. I did mispeak hihi about no longer needing electricity for Brown's Gas, but it sure does cut down on the usage. Anything to lessen the usage and the need is a good start IMO.

So what is the drawback and holdup on Brown's gas? I did a google search on it but didn't find a quick answer to this question.

 

[Severum]

So what is the drawback and holdup on Brown's gas? I did a google search on it but didn't find a quick answer to this question.

Hydrogen is a more likely alternative fuel once we perfect fuel cells and distribution. Using either in IC engines reduces pollution but isn't as efficient as an electric vehicle.