Consequenses of an alternative energy source? (1 Viewer)

[dtc]

but boy wouldn't it be nice to bring the middle east economy to its knees......

+agazillion.

 

[varanook]

but boy wouldn't it be nice to bring the middle east economy to its knees......

Yes but even if we stopped buying there oil they would sell to someone else.

Not sure what you are saying.

 

[Blakejam]

Yes but even if we stopped buying there oil they would sell to someone else.

The industrial revolution that China is experiencing has a had a major effect on all raw materials cost

 

[blackadder]

but boy wouldn't it be nice to bring the middle east economy to its knees......

Even if the Arabs didn't have oil, we'd still be sucked into the region because of the Israelis.

You are kidding yourself if don't believe it....

 

[MSUSousaphone]

Interesting question. Of course, had they the means, blacksmiths might well have asked similar questions 100 years ago.

As far as the big picture is concerned, the point is the energy. The means of production/distribution, etc. are secondary at best.

We are already experiencing the flipside of the issue right this very moment. Oil and gas companies are reaping record profits and doing quite well for themselves, yet the rest of the economy is suffering. So that sector obviously isn't enough to pull the rest of us up with them. Therefore, a new energy source that improves the overall economy at the expense of oil&gas is a no-brainer.

In brief: "**** 'em."

Great post, Taurus.

I have no doubt that if it IS brought in too quickly a ton of people would have to make drastic career changes....but how dumb would it have been to hold the industrial revolution back for the sake of some people's jobs? It'll be much better in the long haul.

 

[Sabine]

Agreed, varanook.

Currently we produce about 40% of the oil we consume, and 2/3 of all that we consume is for transportation. Theoretically, if all forms of transportation were 3 times more fuel efficient (for example: 45 mpg as opposed to 15 mpg), we could be energy independent. US production could remain as it is, if the US' appetite stabilized.

Tripling mpg isn't likely to happen quickly. One thing we could do to make a dent quickly is raise the mph of NEVs to 35 or so from 25 mph, like they did (or are doing in Montana), and focus on battery efficiency. Those vehicles could work for the average urban commuter, especially if that was coupled with construction of recharging stations at our most common stops/layovers. If, for example, our offices/workplaces, grocery stores, Wal-Marts, schools, etc. canopied parking lots with solar panels, NEVs would be more practical. All 4 in my family are inner-city commuters, and NEVs raised to 35 mph would satisfy 95+% of our transportation needs. We could replace 3 of our 4 gas burners today without changing our lifestyle if NEV mph was raised to 35, batteries were improved slightly, and recharging was available as described above.

 

[Rob Beaux]

Another way to decrease oil consumption is decrease the amount of plastics that are used......there are so many every day objects we use that are petro based products.

no quite 100% accurate.
Paper bags vs plastic....its been shown that you use less oil if the oil is used to make plastic instead of cutting trees and processing them into paper or cardboard.

http://www.ilea.org/lcas/franklin1990.html

This isnt the paper I read and I ma having a hard time locating it, but you get the point.

 

[Bishop]

Simply taking public transportation to work would save massive amounts of fuel and emissions. It doesn't require billions spent on research, either. We've started taking the bus few months ago, though I'd attribute that to fear of RI winter roads. A bus pass is $45 monthly for unlimited travel, though I buy ours for $15 to $20 each on the street. The bus stop is a block away, and in front of our jobs. The daily commute is the majority of our driving. Now, I don't feel so guilty driving hundreds of miles enjoying NE with no particular destination in mind. The gas and wear savings on our cars alone is worth taking the bus to work.

Oh, and the buses to the beaches are free when it gets too hot. We're also debating windmills on the coast . RI is a green state. We don't have chemical plants and such. They'll pull you over and tote your car off for noxious fumes. At least they'll give you a bus pass.

 

[schrowa]

The U.S. must become energy independent. If we do this, it will create new jobs, industries, and dumb prevent wars.

 

[Blakejam]

no quite 100% accurate.
Paper bags vs plastic....its been shown that you use less oil if the oil is used to make plastic instead of cutting trees and processing them into paper or cardboard.

http://www.ilea.org/lcas/franklin1990.html

This isnt the paper I read and I ma having a hard time locating it, but you get the point.

Look at it on a larger scale....20 oz soda bottles, trash bags, milk jugs, shampoo botltes...etc. I have a hard time believing that overall oil consumption is not adversely affected by manufacturing of synthetic materials

 

[Shawn]

no quite 100% accurate.
Paper bags vs plastic....its been shown that you use less oil if the oil is used to make plastic instead of cutting trees and processing them into paper or cardboard.

http://www.ilea.org/lcas/franklin1990.html

This isnt the paper I read and I ma having a hard time locating it, but you get the point.

We'll need plastics a lot, lot longer than we would/could need oil for fuel.

And I think the consumption of oil for making plastics is relatively small, and I imagine could always be provided through domestic sources. Many plastics can also be recycled--and you have to weigh it against the cost of other packaging and container costs.

I don't think it's that much of an issue--the overpackaging of products is a problem, but that goes more to waste disposal costs and pollution more than anything.

 

[FWtex]

Agreed, varanook.

Currently we produce about 40% of the oil we consume, and 2/3 of all that we consume is for transportation. Theoretically, if all forms of transportation were 3 times more fuel efficient (for example: 45 mpg as opposed to 15 mpg), we could be energy independent. US production could remain as it is, if the US' appetite stabilized.

Tripling mpg isn't likely to happen quickly. One thing we could do to make a dent quickly is raise the mph of NEVs to 35 or so from 25 mph, like they did (or are doing in Montana), and focus on battery efficiency. Those vehicles could work for the average urban commuter, especially if that was coupled with construction of recharging stations at our most common stops/layovers. If, for example, our offices/workplaces, grocery stores, Wal-Marts, schools, etc. canopied parking lots with solar panels, NEVs would be more practical. All 4 in my family are inner-city commuters, and NEVs raised to 35 mph would satisfy 95+% of our transportation needs. We could replace 3 of our 4 gas burners today without changing our lifestyle if NEV mph was raised to 35, batteries were improved slightly, and recharging was available as described above.

Thanks for the information Sabine. What are NEVs?

After reading some of these post I tend to agree that the oil and gas jobs will see limited change if we stay with the current alternative energy sources such as Nickle Battery, ethanol, etc. Those Items require production so they are not going to be any cheaper but rather an alternative. IMO.

The move back to urban societies is already starting and ironically it had little to do with energy forces. This will help increase public transportation.

The corn crops are a problem now but if that becomes the fuel of choice I believe science will find ways to enhance the corn crops and it may be those crops are not for edible. Who knows?

Redsigning homes? I dread walking into the dark cave built in the 70's so hopefully that does not resurface. A different method of cooling and heating is a logical change and available today but people have to adapt to it. Also, the spray foam insulation is an awesome product as long it doesn't come back as a toxant like asbestos. I spoke with a custom builder on a 4500 sq.ft home that used Spray foam. It adds about 5% to the cost but in that one particular home the cooling and heating cost will be about $250.

The problem I see however is that too many people feel they are too good or above making sacrifices. They have this concept that if enough "others" change then I can continue living habits. High prices will help people make changes but that primarily helps a few pad their bank accounts (oil execs) and not help advance changes for all.

If the Gov't is serious they need to show it. Make changes mandatory and give significant price incentives. (Afterall, they found the guts to make a change to TV signals. lol )

My latest idea is to adapt the corporate tax on large bonuses. Make it that business must pay matching taxes equaling the bonuses paid above $500,000 ( it will cost a company $40mil to give an exec a $20mil bonus) and also that there is a 50% tax on bonus income above $200,000. This may sound wrong to some who have a pro business attitude (as I do) but this is needed to get us through this time and get our economy back on track. Hopefully those corporations will decide to reinvest their profits or share more of it across the board instead of giving it to a few people who are simply padding their savings accounts.

 

[Superfan]

i just think the convenience store industry or service stations will de out, we will have candy companies losing money. Helicopter pilots and guys who work off shore. tug boats and New Orleans as a port can die down. no more sending fuel and such up river. thats if we have fusion power.

i think we want to suck the middle east dry then when the USA has all the oil people buy from us and let the world economy collapse while the USA is ok. we will slowly merge into new energy. lets just have china and russia use all the oil and watch them collapse b/c they are so dependent and have them buy our oil. we will become very rich. in the meantime we can learn from the other countries mistakes as to how to run a new energy economy. this will be like the industrial revolution where we learned from Europe's mistakes.

 

[Rob Beaux]

Look at it on a larger scale....20 oz soda bottles, trash bags, milk jugs, shampoo botltes...etc. I have a hard time believing that overall oil consumption is not adversely affected by manufacturing of synthetic materials

You still arent getting it are you.

It takes MORE OIL to make glass or paper than if you just use oil to make plastic. So if you want to stop oil in the way of packages, then what will 20oz soda bottles be made of ? Plastics in bottles are actually more "green" than using paper.

What Shawn says is true over packaging is a problem but plastics for packages hardly make a debt in the overall petro chemical use. The thing is oil and gas by-products are used in just about everything. Chemical feed stocks are converted into resins for computer chips, epoxies and other synthetics materials. Thats where an absence( or reduction) of oil will hurt not in transportation.

 

[Sabine]

FWTex, an NEV is a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle. They are usually smaller, light weight and run entirely on electricity. Because of their battery dependency, they will not support some of the safety features that Fed regs require for high speeds. So, they are limited to 25 mph with just the basic safety features (seat belts, windshield wipers, lights, etc. - no air bags). They're also restricted to travel on roads with speed limits of 35 mph, which would work for most inner city commuters. Some places like Montana have raised the speed limit for NEVs to 35, which allows them to travel on roads with speed limits of 45 mph (I think). Some NEVs look like glorified golf carts. You may have seen some on university campuses or used by municipal employees. Others have quite unusual designs. The one below, the ZENN (Zero Emissions, No Noise), would IMO be more accepted for inner city commuting if those things listed in my earlier post were addressed. I think the sales price is around $13,000.

http://www.futurecars.com/reviews/zenn-car.html

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You mentioned that Americans may not be willing to adjust their behavior, and I suspect you're right. We have become so consumer and brand oriented . We're like 2 and 3 YO olds, who's identities are so tied to possessions. A 3 YO clips a red towel around his neck and zooms around the room, and he IS Superman. Too often, it gets ugly when someone tries to take his red towel away and threatens his identity. Same is true about Americans and their cars.