Corner vs. DT--your analysis (1 Viewer)

[jboydrive]

It's foolish to commit to a position instead of a player. Dorsey and Ellis both are better than any other CB in the draft. If you have a shot at one of them, you gotta take them.

I think it falls like this for the Saints (if they stay at #10 and someone like McFadden, Gholston or Long falls):

1) Dorsey
2) Ellis
3) McKelvin
4) Rogers-Cromartie
5) Rivers
6) Williams
7) Harvey
8) Mendenhall
9) Merling
10) Jeff Otah

yep, very nice.

DRC looks very impressive and explosive. I think he's a playmaker.

 

[baarbogast]

A quality DT can do several things:

Take on a double team and free up an end or OLB to blitz.

Stuff a running game.

Cause O-linemen to either get beat or get penalized- holding/false start.

Really elite corners can"t really have that effect on every play.

 

[duckjr78]

Simply put, a two dimensional DT-- someone who can take on double teams and keep lineman from the second level and stop the run as well as get interior pressure and disrupt the backfield is very rare. We DO NOT HAVE THAT. Ellis and Dorsey are those kind of guys. Only a handful of teams have this kind of DT. It is integral for any 34 defense, and for any Tampa 2 defense. In our 43, it would be just as important and impactful. We absolutely need this. A good DT is like a good QB or LT. They are RARE. So we should do everything we possibly can to get either Dorsey or Ellis. It is worth our first two picks.

A good CB is good becuase his line is good. He is good becuase the QB is under pressure and the scheme fits his skills. You can gameplan around his weaknesses and protect him with support, pressure, and the coverage you put him in. An elite corner is good no matter what support or scheme he is in. However, even the elite corner gets thrown all over if the QB has all day. We can not help a one dimensional DT without exposing our LB corp and secondary.

Without an elite DT, we are forced to bring somone else into the box, especially against two tight end sets. We are forced to blitz LB's or S's and leave our corner on an island, and if the pressure doesn't get there quickly, especially if we play someone competent, quick, and adept at reading defenses like Brees, Brady, ect, our corners will get burned, even if we have two Champ Baileys.

So in answer to your question, DT, no matter the cost. The players are there. There are two of them, and we will have to trade up and give more than Cincinatti is trying to give. I can guarantee that this is the only move that makes sense becuase next year we probably will not be drafting as high and it will cost more to move up. Last year, there was no elite DT. This year there are two. Go after what is there while we have the chance becuase these guys do not come along very often.

Really well put and thought out argument. I agree wilth every word. For proof check out the Pat's last two Super Bowl wins. No WR's to speak of, no RB's to speak of, and no CB's to speak of. Amazing front 7, amazing OL, and amazing QB. The rest of the position are reliant on these guys.

 

[basilisk]

my top 10 would be:
1) dorsey
2) c. long
3) mcfadden
4) ryan
5) ellis
6) j. long
7) otah
8) connor
9) mckelvin
10a) jenkins
10b) rivers
10c) c. williams (OT from vandy)

i think the top 10 picks will be:
miami - c. long (maybe gholston, who i don't even have in my top 10)
st. louis - j. long
atlanta - dorsey
oakland - mcfadden
kc - r. clady or otah or c. williams (probably clady)
jets - v. gholston
pats - l. mckelvin
ravens - m. ryan
cincy - s. ellis
saints - (in order) otah, connor, jenkins, rivers, williams

if dorsey gets past atlanta i'd seriously look to bundle our 2nd to move up for dorsey, maybe with kc (cause clady looks to be there @ 10)... if ellis makes it to the ravens i'd only move up if they'd take our 1st and 3rd for their 1st and 4th or something like that

 

[bobad]

So which position do you say will help the D the most, and tell us why that's your choice.

Every team has a dozen or so big money players. The more of those players are on the OL and DL, the more they usually win. Teams that have lots of big money CB's, RB's, S, WR's are exciting to watch, but are not normally perinneal winners.

I hope we grab the best DL available with pick 10, then grab the best remaining LB's and CB's. I doubt it will happen that way. I expect 4 of our 6 picks going to offense, including a RB in round 1 or 2. That's just Payton's strong offensive bias.

 

[Teachersaint]

DT's are a crapshoot in the draft. No matter how good we think Dorsey and Ellis will be---there are always a couple of DT's who everyone thinks will shine. The failure rate of DT's in the top of the draft is very alarming.
06--Bunkley
05-Travis Johnson
03- Roberstson sullivan Jimmy Kennedy
02-Ryan Sims Wendell Bryant
01Gerard Warren Daimione Lewis

CB's not as many busts,

 

[NOVASaint]

It is frightening how many DTs bust. I guess the Saints really weren't snakebit when we got Sullivan. It's a risk you take when you pick the position.

 

[Saint Tex]

It's foolish to commit to a position instead of a player. Dorsey and Ellis both are better than any other CB in the draft. If you have a shot at one of them, you gotta take them.

I think it falls like this for the Saints (if they stay at #10 and someone like McFadden, Gholston or Long falls):

1) Dorsey
2) Ellis
3) McKelvin
4) Rogers-Cromartie
5) Rivers
6) Williams
7) Harvey
8) Mendenhall
9) Merling
10) Jeff Otah

When you say "how it falls," is this your list of who you think the Saints top ten players are, or is this your mock draft for the top ten spots? Just curious.

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

If we expect Vilma to have an impact that Brees had when he came from SD we need to put the pieces in front of him to allow him to be successful.......that means a DT. I think we do whatever possible to move up to 7 or 8 and get Ellis. If we can add a player like Ellis to our front seven, we could very well have a top front 7 in the NFL, especially if Morgan can somehow stay healthy for 12-14 games. That's where I concentrate if I'm the Saints......and get a CB later in the draft.

If for whatever reason we can't trade up or someone outbids us for one of the DT's to move up, then I move on to option 2, which would be taking BPA, who will most likely be Mckelvin, DRC or Clady. If this happens we have to try as hard as possible to make a play at Laws or Balmer which will mean trying to trade up into the bottom of round 1. Somehow, we hvae to get some youth at DT that has a chance to become a stud or else we aren't making the most of a great aquisition in Vilma.

 

[St. PJ]

DT's are a crapshoot in the draft. No matter how good we think Dorsey and Ellis will be---there are always a couple of DT's who everyone thinks will shine. The failure rate of DT's in the top of the draft is very alarming.
06--Bunkley
05-Travis Johnson
03- Roberstson sullivan Jimmy Kennedy
02-Ryan Sims Wendell Bryant
01Gerard Warren Daimione Lewis

CB's not as many busts,

Neither Bunkley, Johnson, or Robertson are busts. Philidelphia has a pretty darn good defensive line-- their bust comes at the DE position. Houston has one of the best dlines and DT dou in the league. It looked like they were all bust, but with the final peice added last year, they all played very well. And Robertson has gotten better every year, even though he isn't built to play in a 34, last year was his best year. I usually like your posts TeacherSaint, but I think you should really give Bunkley, Johnson, and Robertson a closer look.

 

[MLU]

When you say "how it falls," is this your list of who you think the Saints top ten players are, or is this your mock draft for the top ten spots? Just curious.

This my list of who I think the Saints feel are the top ten players with needs playing (somewhat of) a role.

 

[MLU]

When you say "how it falls," is this your list of who you think the Saints top ten players are, or is this your mock draft for the top ten spots? Just curious.

This my list of who I think the Saints feel are the top ten players with needs playing (somewhat of) a role.

 

[Saint Tex]

This my list of who I think the Saints feel are the top ten players with needs playing (somewhat of) a role.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Saint Tex]

This my list of who I think the Saints feel are the top ten players with needs playing (somewhat of) a role.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Teachersaint]

Neither Bunkley, Johnson, or Robertson are busts. Philidelphia has a pretty darn good defensive line-- their bust comes at the DE position. Houston has one of the best dlines and DT dou in the league. It looked like they were all bust, but with the final peice added last year, they all played very well. And Robertson has gotten better every year, even though he isn't built to play in a 34, last year was his best year. I usually like your posts TeacherSaint, but I think you should really give Bunkley, Johnson, and Robertson a closer look.

Robertson was #4 overall and really hasnt done much---Bunkley the same...and Johnson wasn't even starting.....I just think at where they were picked, they are not performing up to the value at that spot in the draft.

If you look at the great DT's in the league now..a lot were not first rounders---
Pat Williams-UDFA
Rod Coleman 5th
Kris Jenkins--2nd
Casey Hampton-2nd
Jamal WIlliams-UDFA
Darnell Docket--3rd
Sopoaga 4th
Kelly Gregg 6th
Leroi Glover 5th


There are some DT's that are picked high that pan out--Seymour--

I'm not saying that Dorsey or Ellis will be busts--but you never know---plus yesterday on Sirius 124 Pat Kirwan was saying that there was a DT from somewhere in the south who is off of some peoples boards because of several failed drug tests (Sims?, Okam?) He didnt want to call out his name because he said he thought the name would come out about a week before the draft anyhow.

here is a decent article about DT's Is it sack-religious to suggest passing on DTs Dorsey, Ellis?