Cosell on 3-4 / 4-3 on shut down corner Posted twice and merged by mods :) (1 Viewer)

guillermo

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Greg Cossell, Great article on history and evolution of the 3-4 defense

What is the foundation of defensive fronts, you ask? Gap concepts. That’s the basis of all fronts. You often hear the terms “1-gap” and “2-gap”. The supposition with 3-4 fronts has always been it’s a “2-gap” scheme, with the two defensive ends aligned directly over the offensive tackles, and the nose tackle head up on the center. The term “2-gap” derives from their responsibilities as run defenders. All three of those defensive linemen are responsible for two gaps along the line of scrimmage. They do not penetrate through a single gap at the snap of the ball; rather, they stalemate the blocker in front of them, at the same time reading where the back is going. They are accountable for the gap to each side of their respective offensive lineman. Once the back declares, the defensive linemen ideally shed their blockers and get to the ball.

Rest of the article:

Y! SPORTS
 
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We talked about this before and some of us were saying how our new 3-4 would look a lot like a 4-3 Under. Boom. LOL
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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Ive been saying it. Thats why I've been sayin gwe will probably keep hicks@ 1tech because its just a 4-3 with guys in different gaps and the weakside DE is just more athletic. The WILB is still the Will in a 4-3. The Mike is the Mike and the SOLB is responsible for the same thing. However u have to have very good WILB play. Which is where Vilma will come in. Thats why Cushing plays that spot in Houston.


Though im not so sure about the Whole NY thing.

Payton and several other people have said that NY ran a strict 2 gap 3-4

Payton even mentioned it when speaking on the transition saying it wouldn't be like what you saw in NY in the Parcells era.
 

LSSpam

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Ive been saying it. Thats why I've been sayin gwe will probably keep hicks@ 1tech because its just a 4-3 with guys in different gaps and the weakside DE is just more athletic. The WILB is still the Will in a 4-3. The Mike is the Mike and the SOLB is responsible for the same thing. However u have to have very good WILB play. Which is where Vilma will come in. Thats why Cushing plays that spot in Houston.


Though im not so sure about the Whole NY thing.

Payton and several other people have said that NY ran a strict 2 gap 3-4

Payton even mentioned it when speaking on the transition saying it wouldn't be like what you saw in NY in the Parcells era.
You're such a genius
 

Saint Kamara

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"Keep in mind that [Demarcus] Ware only had 8 sacks as a rookie in 2005, and he started all 16 games".

Saints fans would be ecstatic if a newly drafted Jones or Mingo comes in and accomplishes that in his inaugural season.
 

JimmyB1775

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Ive been saying it. Thats why I've been sayin gwe will probably keep hicks@ 1tech because its just a 4-3 with guys in different gaps and the weakside DE is just more athletic. The WILB is still the Will in a 4-3. The Mike is the Mike and the SOLB is responsible for the same thing. However u have to have very good WILB play. Which is where Vilma will come in. Thats why Cushing plays that spot in Houston.


Though im not so sure about the Whole NY thing.

Payton and several other people have said that NY ran a strict 2 gap 3-4

Payton even mentioned it when speaking on the transition saying it wouldn't be like what you saw in NY in the Parcells era.
I got a question for you. You seem to be either the most knowledgable here or the most willing to share. I like both. With Vilma back, and Gallette signed, does Wilson fall at the SOLB? Or the other OLB? He played 34 in school but he was inside, right?

The other question is where do you see Keenan Lewis? It looks to me like he's just another part of the puzzle and we're still purusing Nnamdi or a draft prospect. I thought Lewis was more of a zone bump guy. He and PRob are exactly the oppositie if I interpreted it all correctly. Then there is Greer who is getting paid what we intend to pay Lewis.

And who is the guy in your avatar?
 

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That is a great article! Its a must read for any football fan. According to the article Lawrence Taylor is the "ideal" pass rushing outside line backer. If that's the case then is Junior Galette the answer at the position? I know Galette is fast and athletic, but Im not entirely sure he can cover or shed blocks like L.T. did. Who knows maybe Galette wont play that WOLB spot, maybe it will be Martez Wilson, or better yet Jamie Collins. Jamie Collins seems to be that ultra-rare athletic freak that can do all the things that L.T. did in New York.
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I got a question for you. You seem to be either the most knowledgable here or the most willing to share. I like both. With Vilma back, and Gallette signed, does Wilson fall at the SOLB? Or the other OLB? He played 34 in school but he was inside, right?

The other question is where do you see Keenan Lewis? It looks to me like he's just another part of the puzzle and we're still purusing Nnamdi or a draft prospect. I thought Lewis was more of a zone bump guy. He and PRob are exactly the oppositie if I interpreted it all correctly. Then there is Greer who is getting paid what we intend to pay Lewis.

And who is the guy in your avatar?
I won't say im the most knowledgeable but I read and research a lot. However u got the part right about me willing to share information.


I think Wilson would be a good WILB from a prototype standpoint....BUT from an instincts stand point which is key@the position he'd probably not pan out how you expect.

I personally don't think Wilson is a natural passrusher. He can shoot gaps and blitz but id prefer to use his 4.4 speed as a chase and tackle kind of guy. His height in the middle would also be good for clogging passing lanes. Him getting proper depth in his drops in zone coverage would help because maybe it forces the QB to throw the ball a little higher to get it over him...small things like that can be the difference between a routine catch and throw to a qb trying to fit a ball in a tight window and its contested or out of the WR's reach entirely.



With all that being said I think the team sees him as a guy who can put pressure on the QB from the outside. He has shown that he can drop into coverage and cover TE's. In the ATL game there was one play he dropped into coverage with Gonzales and stuck with him. His only mistake was as he turned he clapped his hands together as the ball was coming (sort of a wasted motion) when he finally did reach gonzales had snatched it out of the air for a catch. Now it was a good throw by Matt and Gonzales is one of the best at using his body to block the defender out but it showed me that Wilson can at least stick with a TE.

Also He was drafted to Play SOLB in 3G's scheme and the 3-4 under SOLB has the exact same responsibilities. So thats another reason i think u may see him @SOLB. He will get his opportunities to rush the passer but not as much as the ROLB. He'll get more coverage responsibilities and will probably 2gap on some occasions.

The other reason is its a #'s game @WILB. You have Vilma and Hawthorne potentially vying for that spot so he has no chance of starting there.


Keenan Lewis could play on either side. Some defenses don't use a boundary and field corner but im not sure if we will employ those concepts under ryan.

Basically your Boundary Corner is the bigger corner and is better in run support. Keenan i think in this scenario could play here. HE gets the least amount of safety help because the safety is rotated more towards the field side. So essentially they get put on the Island the most.

The field corner would be the smaller more agile of the two because he has to cover the most ground. Patrick Robinson Greer. They get safety help the most so they get to be gamblers. Think Asante in NE/ATL now as i think Mike Nolan uses the boundary/field concept.

Again thats just how id look@ building the secondary becasue i like the concept...however truth is He could play LCB and RCB. So thats really a toss up right now. Also the SS is normally the playmaker in this Defense. William Moore/Rodney Harrison. So its why I haven't been to high on Roman playing the position...but due to the effect on the salary cap well probably make due for another year.

Still.......Sean said he had to make some tough decisions and i think he was talking about Defense and i haven't seen one TOUGH decision made yet...so that leads me to believe that maybe there is one or two more moves that we haven't made that will surprise us all. Maybe not? Just my opinion.



The guy in my avatar is Aaron Maybin.
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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You're such a genius

Cmon Spam.. I hope that was a playful jab.

Look i like to be right just as much as the next person.......but im also OK with being wrong. Im a glass half full kind of guy. Being Wrong means i just learned something new so im ok with it.

When you guys correct me on something i take it in stride but i don't pretend to be some know it all and if i come across like that i apologize. I just like to share information but i do develop strong opinions.....like Hicks playing DT over DE

Truth is i still might be wrong but for the time being it appears that my theory of it basically being a 4-3 with an athletic DE then it makes sense to have hicks continue to play the NT/1 gap like he did his rookie season rotating with Bunkley


If im wrong then ill gladly point out how Cali was right and i was wrong as the theory for having him play @ RDE makes sense as well.
 

CaliSaint4Life

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I won't say im the most knowledgeable but I read and research a lot. However u got the part right about me willing to share information.


I think Wilson would be a good WILB from a prototype standpoint....BUT from an instincts stand point which is key@the position he'd probably not pan out how you expect.

I personally don't think Wilson is a natural passrusher. He can shoot gaps and blitz but id prefer to use his 4.4 speed as a chase and tackle kind of guy. His height in the middle would also be good for clogging passing lanes. Him getting proper depth in his drops in zone coverage would help because maybe it forces the QB to throw the ball a little higher to get it over him...small things like that can be the difference between a routine catch and throw to a qb trying to fit a ball in a tight window and its contested or out of the WR's reach entirely.



With all that being said I think the team sees him as a guy who can put pressure on the QB from the outside. He has shown that he can drop into coverage and cover TE's. In the ATL game there was one play he dropped into coverage with Gonzales and stuck with him. His only mistake was as he turned he clapped his hands together as the ball was coming (sort of a wasted motion) when he finally did reach gonzales had snatched it out of the air for a catch. Now it was a good throw by Matt and Gonzales is one of the best at using his body to block the defender out but it showed me that Wilson can at least stick with a TE.

Also He was drafted to Play SOLB in 3G's scheme and the 3-4 under SOLB has the exact same responsibilities. So thats another reason i think u may see him @SOLB. He will get his opportunities to rush the passer but not as much as the ROLB. He'll get more coverage responsibilities and will probably 2gap on some occasions.

The other reason is its a #'s game @WILB. You have Vilma and Hawthorne potentially vying for that spot so he has no chance of starting there.


Keenan Lewis could play on either side. Some defenses don't use a boundary and field corner but im not sure if we will employ those concepts under ryan.

Basically your Boundary Corner is the bigger corner and is better in run support. Keenan i think in this scenario could play here. HE gets the least amount of safety help because the safety is rotated more towards the field side. So essentially they get put on the Island the most.

The field corner would be the smaller more agile of the two because he has to cover the most ground. Patrick Robinson Greer. They get safety help the most so they get to be gamblers. Think Asante in NE/ATL now as i think Mike Nolan uses the boundary/field concept.

Again thats just how id look@ building the secondary becasue i like the concept...however truth is He could play LCB and RCB. So thats really a toss up right now. Also the SS is normally the playmaker in this Defense. William Moore/Rodney Harrison. So its why I haven't been to high on Roman playing the position...but due to the effect on the salary cap well probably make due for another year.

Still.......Sean said he had to make some tough decisions and i think he was talking about Defense and i haven't seen one TOUGH decision made yet...so that leads me to believe that maybe there is one or two more moves that we haven't made that will surprise us all. Maybe not? Just my opinion.



The guy in my avatar is Aaron Maybin.
That's not entirely true. The boundary corner is basically the corner lined up on the short side of the field.
 

CaliSaint4Life

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Cmon Spam.. I hope that was a playful jab.

Look i like to be right just as much as the next person.......but im also OK with being wrong. Im a glass half full kind of guy. Being Wrong means i just learned something new so im ok with it.

When you guys correct me on something i take it in stride but i don't pretend to be some know it all and if i come across like that i apologize. I just like to share information but i do develop strong opinions.....like Hicks playing DT over DE

Truth is i still might be wrong but for the time being it appears that my theory of it basically being a 4-3 with an athletic DE then it makes sense to have hicks continue to play the NT/1 gap like he did his rookie season rotating with Bunkley


If im wrong then ill gladly point out how Cali was right and i was wrong as the theory for having him play @ RDE makes sense as well.
My problem around here lately is that with the switch to the 3-4 people have been taking previous schemes and just tried to apply it to what we are going to do. Now I think it's great to get informed and increase your knowledge base, but I just don't think football works like that. You can't say "here's a 1-gap 3-4 and now we have to figure out how our player fit into it", and leave it at that. It's valid to a certain extent but it's not the whole picture.

Smart defensive coordinators get the best players on the field, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, and try to put them in a position to succeed. Unless your name starts with a 'S', ends with an 'O', and rhymes with 'Ragsolo', you typically try to make the scheme fit to the players instead of vice versa.

With Hicks, I simply see a player who has the potential to dominate guards 1on1 and he's be allowed to do that as a DE. It's simple, the player is in a position to succeed - that trumps scheme to me. I could care less about a 3-4 or 4-3 at the end of the day.

To be honest, Ryan may be one of the hardest DC to try to project. From going back and looking at what the Cowboys did over the last couple years, I've seen all eleven guys standing up, to them having two down lineman, to them lining up in a classic two-gap scheme (two 5-techs and a zero). It'll be interesting to see....
 

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That's not entirely true. The boundary corner is basically the corner lined up on the short side of the field.


Basically your Boundary Corner is the bigger corner and is better in run support. Keenan i think in this scenario could play here. HE gets the least amount of safety help because the safety is rotated more towards the field side. So essentially they get put on the Island the most.



The field corner would be the smaller more agile of the two because he has to cover the most ground


While i didn't explain it throughly i alluded to as much by mentioning that the field corner has the most ground to cover of the two. Meaning he plays on wide side of the field.



My problem around here lately is that with the switch to the 3-4 people have been taking previous schemes and just tried to apply it to what we are going to do. Now I think it's great to get informed and increase your knowledge base, but I just don't think football works like that. You can't say "here's a 1-gap 3-4 and now we have to figure out how our player fit into it", and leave it at that. It's valid to a certain extent but it's not the whole picture.

Smart defensive coordinators get the best players on the field, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, and try to put them in a position to succeed. Unless your name starts with a 'S', ends with an 'O', and rhymes with 'Ragsolo', you typically try to make the scheme fit to the players instead of vice versa.

With Hicks, I simply see a player who has the potential to dominate guards 1on1 and he's be allowed to do that as a DE. It's simple, the player is in a position to succeed - that trumps scheme to me. I could care less about a 3-4 or 4-3 at the end of the day.

To be honest, Ryan may be one of the hardest DC to try to project. From going back and looking at what the Cowboys did over the last couple years, I've seen all eleven guys standing up, to them having two down lineman, to them lining up in a classic two-gap scheme (two 5-techs and a zero). It'll be interesting to see....
Well obviously you and TCU and several others have more knowledge than me about the game either from being around the game or playing. You are much more fundamentally sound than I am and i respect that and look to you guys to cement my own thoughts.


Respectfully when you look@scheme and how players fit i think you have to do EXACTLY that when piecing together your scheme.

When Payton and all the players talked about making the transition they've all talked about what they've done or been asked to do previously.

When SP mentioned Vilma he directly pointed to what he did LAST YEAR playing as a WOLB in the 4-3 as why he could make the transition to 3-4 ILB. He pointed to how Lofton would be asked to do some of the same things so he mentioned how the transition should be smooth in theory.

That is looking@ what your 3-4 will require as of technique and what guys do the best or what they've done well in the past and how they fit.


For that reason is why i say even though Hicks has the ability to dominate guards@ RDE for the sake of the team and not creating a hole@ NT why move him?

Im just using the same logic that Hicks was asked to play 1 tech in rotation and he and bunkley did very well with that. 3sacks 40 tkls 1 ff and a batted pass or two between then 2 off them.

With hicks seeing more time in that role and being better after a year i expect his #'s to rise. He should also see an increased role in the nickel where bunkley will be a two down player. So he gets a chance to dominate Guards from there just like ur saying he can do.. We just have a matter of opinion on if he should do it in base or sub packages like nickel/dime.

ID prefer in the base he do exactly what he was asked to do in the base of the 4-3...play the 1 tech. On occasion he played 3 tech and proved he can do it.



Now the good thing about our debates is we all come to conclusions different ways. From your knowledge and your eyes you see a guy that can play 3 tech and dominate guards.

I see a guy that can play the #2 nt and move around in packages and attack that way. He still gets on the field and he still gets to showcase his talents playing multiple techniques.




Look@ Watt. Hes a guy that can destroy guards but in the TExans Base 3-4 he playes the DE..however in the Nickel he moves to DT and thats where his sacks come from the 3tech. So does that mean hes a better 3 tech than he is 5tech. In the base he plays 5 right? and in the nickel he plays 3 tech.

He showcases his quality and it allows him to be a force against the run and also get push for the pass.


I see the same for hicks you continue to develop him from what hes shown he can do while also adding more to his plate. Allow him to continue playing 1 tech in the base and move him around in subs and let him reack havoc.


I for one would like hicks are bunkley in the triangle of my defense



Regardless to how we come to our conclusions we stil have the potential to be right/wrong based off what we see and how we see it.
 

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