COVID-19 Outbreak Information Updates (Reboot) [over 150.000,000 US cases (est.), 6,422,520 US hospitilizations, 1,148,691 US deaths.] (11 Viewers)

[AARPSaint]

America... land of the free, home of the stupidest forking people on the planet.

Nice, succinct summary. H. L. Mencken once said, "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the taste of the American public." I think that's a pretty accurate quote--but lately, I would substitute "stupidity" for "taste."

There's a difference between individualism and narcissistic selfishness. And there's a difference between civility and political correctness. We seem to have difficulty in making these distinctions--and it's polarizing us and, in some cases, killing us.

 

[J.T.]

That was a huge complaint about Disney is that there was literally nowhere to go to take your mask off. The only way you could do it was to stand stationary while sipping water or eating food. But then people would get on to you for eating too close to the merchandise. Being told by cast members to have my suffocating child to pull their mask up over their nose all day was a distraction. I would have gladly complied for a more rigorous entrance criteria if it meant I didn't need to worry about the masks.

We are getting close to getting to the point where everyone who wants a vaccine in our country can get it. Perhaps, that's the route that the theme parks will go when we reach that point...then they simply don't let you into the park unless you have a vaccination card, or you are unable to get the vaccine (children).

"We are getting close to getting to the point where everyone who wants a vaccine in our country can get it. Perhaps, that's the route that the theme parks will go when we reach that point...then they simply don't let you into the park unless you have a vaccination card, or you are unable to get the vaccine (children)."

This is the tipping point for me and for many other people, I believe. There comes a point where you have to look at things and say, well.....if they don't want the vaccine, they probably don't really care much about actually getting the virus. I follow the common sense rules as set out by the government and follow private business guidelines, but at some point the government rules will change and private businesses will mostly start to follow and relax their rules. I am currently in a jurisdiction that has an outdoor "mask mandate" if you are walking on the sidewalk. I am not following this rule. It is stupid, is not based on science and is something that I refuse to do. I do wear a mask when in a crowded outdoor area and when going indoors in businesses because that is a requirement of those businesses. I understand that some people have no problem wearing a mask outdoors in an uncrowded situation, that is fine for them, they can do what they desire, but I also see people wearing masks and riding bicycles or jogging. To me that is just downright dumb because you are restricting oxygen flow while exercising.

Healthy Children have a tiny risk from this disease, somewhere around the normal risk factor of the seasonal flu, possibly lower. I have a friend with a three year old who is paranoid that their kid will get Covid. She has kept this kid isolated from any other children for over a year and the child has only seen five people in that year, all close family members. I think this may have a huge negative impact on this child and on countless others. Somebody needs to set things straight about healthy children.

On vaccines.....we are nearing a plateau on vaccine uptake, we have peaked at our "shots per day" number and the daily number will likely continue to go down. Many colleges will require proof of Covid Vaccination for the Fall Semester, many High Schools may also require the vaccine. I think we will see a steady demand in the one million to one and a half million shots for most of the Summer, but NO WAY do we hit "herd immunity" through vaccinations. the anti-vax crowd is too strong, it won't happen, so what happens then? Do we all have to stay "masked up" indoors forever? Do we get our lives back at some point? (I know many people do not think that wearing a mask is all that intrusive, but I do.)

The "outdoor mask guidance" will likely be lifted very soon. When do we get past the thought that is you are indoors at a restaurant and "actively eating or drinking" you are ok to not have a mask on, but if you are walking in WalMart you need a mask? There is zero difference in the risk of transmission in the two circumstances. Better than that, if you are fully vaccinated, wearing a mask is just not a thing that you should be forced to do under any circumstances outside of a healthcare setting. I don't see the Federal Government lifting the mask mandate inside of airports or on airplanes any time soon, if ever. I have flown in the last month and a half and can tell you, wearing a mask for hours on a plane is not a good thing at all. It is kind of terrible, actually. I am 100% in favor of vaccine status apps of some sort. I don't mind calling them Vaccine Passports. Let me have one, let a business decide if that means that I have different rules or access than unvaccinated people.

 

[Arathrael]

There may be a point where there's a case for restricting access to things to vaccinated people. There may also be a point where it's both not necessary and practical to only require unvaccinated people to wear masks.

But a "vaccinated people shouldn't have to wear masks" principle can easily be taken too far, ignoring the complexities and impracticalities of conditional enforcement, as well as the still developing picture of to what extent vaccinations prevent transmission, and how current and potential variants may impact this.

I'll continue to wear a mask wherever it's required regardless of how appropriate I personally think the requirement might be, for much the same reason I usually stick to speed limits even if I think they're inappropriately low. Because the principle doing otherwise establishes isn't that smart people making intelligent decisions like us can ignore the rules if they think they're inappropriate; it's that everyone can.

YMMV.

 

[brandon8283]

That was a huge complaint about Disney is that there was literally nowhere to go to take your mask off. The only way you could do it was to stand stationary while sipping water or eating food. But then people would get on to you for eating too close to the merchandise. Being told by cast members to have my suffocating child to pull their mask up over their nose all day was a distraction. I would have gladly complied for a more rigorous entrance criteria if it meant I didn't need to worry about the masks.

We are getting close to getting to the point where everyone who wants a vaccine in our country can get it. Perhaps, that's the route that the theme parks will go when we reach that point...then they simply don't let you into the park unless you have a vaccination card, or you are unable to get the vaccine (children).

You knew what you were getting into when you went to Disney. My family did fine, but we went in December, so it was pretty comfortable weather. Plus, every meal we ate indoors was obviously maskless, so there was a lunch break every day without a mask. I didn't have a single cast member tell anyone in my family to pull up a mask because we followed the rules, and we taught our child to follow the rules. As a matter of fact, I didn't see a single person the whole time we were there get called out by a cast member, so it sounds like your family was a pretty big problem to be called out that many times. Maybe try not to be so entitled.

This is the tipping point for me and for many other people, I believe. There comes a point where you have to look at things and say, well.....if they don't want the vaccine, they probably don't really care much about actually getting the virus.

That's probably true, but being vaccinated isn't an absolute guarantee that you won't get the virus. But being in an place where everyone has been vaccinated? That's about as close to a guarantee as you'll get. If you want to come in, get your shot.

 

[superchuck500]

There may be a point where there's a case for restricting access to things to vaccinated people. There may also be a point where it's both not necessary and practical to only require unvaccinated people to wear masks.

But a "vaccinated people shouldn't have to wear masks" principle can easily be taken too far, ignoring the complexities and impracticalities of conditional enforcement, as well as the still developing picture of to what extent vaccinations prevent transmission, and how current and potential variants may impact this.

I'll continue to wear a mask wherever it's required regardless of how appropriate I personally think the requirement might be, for much the same reason I usually stick to speed limits even if I think they're inappropriately low. Because the principle doing otherwise establishes isn't that smart people making intelligent decisions like us can ignore the rules if they think they're inappropriate; it's that everyone can.

YMMV.

I agree - beginning to condition mask mandates on not being vaccinated opens a door to very difficult enforcement. If, for example, airlines decide vaccinated people don't have to wear a mask, they're now asking flight crews to be aware of which passengers aren't vaccinated and enforce the mask rule on those passengers. Seems an unreasonable ask for crew members who have enough to do already - and it opens the door to far more bickering from passengers.

It's just not a good idea.

 

[efil4stnias]

You knew what you were getting into when you went to Disney. My family did fine, but we went in December, so it was pretty comfortable weather. Plus, every meal we ate indoors was obviously maskless, so there was a lunch break every day without a mask. I didn't have a single cast member tell anyone in my family to pull up a mask because we followed the rules, and we taught our child to follow the rules. As a matter of fact, I didn't see a single person the whole time we were there get called out by a cast member, so it sounds like your family was a pretty big problem to be called out that many times. Maybe try not to be so entitled.


That's probably true, but being vaccinated isn't an absolute guarantee that you won't get the virus. But being in an place where everyone has been vaccinated? That's about as close to a guarantee as you'll get. If you want to come in, get your shot.

i think what also gets lost is the vaccine is meant to minimize the effects, not keep you from ever catching/transmitting COVID-19.

At this point, if you are willing to risk "long covid"/acute covid w/ hospitalization, thats your choice. Tired of trying to get people to understand when they have zero interest in understanding and looking out for their neighbor.

 

[superchuck500]

i think what also gets lost is the vaccine is meant to minimize the effects, not keep you from ever catching/transmitting COVID-19.

At this point, if you are willing to risk "long covid"/acute covid w/ hospitalization, thats your choice. Tired of trying to get people to understand when they have zero interest in understanding and looking out for their neighbor.

I think it's both - the vaccine absolutely serves a prophylactic function . . . it is highly effective at keeping the vaccinated from even getting an infection or transmitting one.

This has now been borne out in real observation in at-risk sectors. "Results showed that following the second dose of vaccine (the recommended number of doses), risk of infection was reduced by 90 percent two or more weeks after vaccination. Following a single dose of either vaccine, the participants’ risk of infection with SARS-CoV-2 was reduced by 80 percent two or more weeks after vaccination." https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0329-COVID-19-Vaccines.html. There are other research with similar conclusions.

And yes, it is also believed to also substantially (almost completely) reduce severity.

 

[sammymvpknight]

i think what also gets lost is the vaccine is meant to minimize the effects, not keep you from ever catching/transmitting COVID-19.

At this point, if you are willing to risk "long covid"/acute covid w/ hospitalization, thats your choice. Tired of trying to get people to understand when they have zero interest in understanding and looking out for their neighbor.

This is where I'm at. We aren't going to be wearing masks forever. So the question becomes when would be a reasonable time to lift mask mandates. I think that point should be the point in time when everyone in the country who could have receive the vaccine if it was available to them plus 2 weeks. I'm not sure if we are there yet...but I'd imagine that we are pretty close. At that point...if you're not vaccinated and you get sick...well, you should have been vaccinated. Either way we will end up getting herd immunity eventually. There will be some that end up getting sick who cannot be vaccinated, such as children, but that number according to our current medical literature is really low. If the vaccine is continuing to show essentially 100% protection against serious illness, I don't think that it is right for vaccinated people to be held hostage by those refusing to get vaccinated.

 

[sammymvpknight]

I agree - beginning to condition mask mandates on not being vaccinated opens a door to very difficult enforcement. If, for example, airlines decide vaccinated people don't have to wear a mask, they're now asking flight crews to be aware of which passengers aren't vaccinated and enforce the mask rule on those passengers. Seems an unreasonable ask for crew members who have enough to do already - and it opens the door to far more bickering from passengers.

It's just not a good idea.

It's still iffy how much the masks really help. We suspect that they do help to a certain degree. But frankly...I'd rather hang out with a random person who is vaccinated, neither of us wearing masks than to hang out with someone with someone unvaccinated, both of us wearing masks. Have a vaccination card verification system. It can be done. Those that have been vaccinated can fly, and those that haven't can't. If we are really looking out for the health of our flight attendants...I think that's the route to go. Of course that wouldn't happen...because of the airlines don't want discrimination suits.

 

[Saint_Ward]

"We are getting close to getting to the point where everyone who wants a vaccine in our country can get it. Perhaps, that's the route that the theme parks will go when we reach that point...then they simply don't let you into the park unless you have a vaccination card, or you are unable to get the vaccine (children)."

This is the tipping point for me and for many other people, I believe. There comes a point where you have to look at things and say, well.....if they don't want the vaccine, they probably don't really care much about actually getting the virus. I follow the common sense rules as set out by the government and follow private business guidelines, but at some point the government rules will change and private businesses will mostly start to follow and relax their rules. I am currently in a jurisdiction that has an outdoor "mask mandate" if you are walking on the sidewalk. I am not following this rule. It is stupid, is not based on science and is something that I refuse to do. I do wear a mask when in a crowded outdoor area and when going indoors in businesses because that is a requirement of those businesses. I understand that some people have no problem wearing a mask outdoors in an uncrowded situation, that is fine for them, they can do what they desire, but I also see people wearing masks and riding bicycles or jogging. To me that is just downright dumb because you are restricting oxygen flow while exercising.

Healthy Children have a tiny risk from this disease, somewhere around the normal risk factor of the seasonal flu, possibly lower. I have a friend with a three year old who is paranoid that their kid will get Covid. She has kept this kid isolated from any other children for over a year and the child has only seen five people in that year, all close family members. I think this may have a huge negative impact on this child and on countless others. Somebody needs to set things straight about healthy children.

On vaccines.....we are nearing a plateau on vaccine uptake, we have peaked at our "shots per day" number and the daily number will likely continue to go down. Many colleges will require proof of Covid Vaccination for the Fall Semester, many High Schools may also require the vaccine. I think we will see a steady demand in the one million to one and a half million shots for most of the Summer, but NO WAY do we hit "herd immunity" through vaccinations. the anti-vax crowd is too strong, it won't happen, so what happens then? Do we all have to stay "masked up" indoors forever? Do we get our lives back at some point? (I know many people do not think that wearing a mask is all that intrusive, but I do.)

The "outdoor mask guidance" will likely be lifted very soon. When do we get past the thought that is you are indoors at a restaurant and "actively eating or drinking" you are ok to not have a mask on, but if you are walking in WalMart you need a mask? There is zero difference in the risk of transmission in the two circumstances. Better than that, if you are fully vaccinated, wearing a mask is just not a thing that you should be forced to do under any circumstances outside of a healthcare setting. I don't see the Federal Government lifting the mask mandate inside of airports or on airplanes any time soon, if ever. I have flown in the last month and a half and can tell you, wearing a mask for hours on a plane is not a good thing at all. It is kind of terrible, actually. I am 100% in favor of vaccine status apps of some sort. I don't mind calling them Vaccine Passports. Let me have one, let a business decide if that means that I have different rules or access than unvaccinated people.

So, that's the reason why the CDC put out the new rule, for local areas to relax a bit on these kind of rules for outdoor masking.

I"m not so worried about kids catching it and dying, but catching it and spreading it.

I mostly agree with your stance on vaccinated people being allowed more freedoms, and I think the CDC is working towards that, but realizes 'enforcement' or 'verification' will be a pain in the rear, so they'd probably like to wait until a higher % is vaccinated.

Regarding risk.. sitting at eating at a table in doors, while allowed, is still a lot riskier than walking through walmart for 30 min, all dependent on airflow. That's the study I posted. Basically, you have about 45-55 minutes in a spread out, decently ventilated restaurant if someone with covid rolls in and sticks around. I don't think they fully captured large open doors, fans, etc to really circulate air, though.

so, while you can be indoors in a bar or restaurant, it really is a higher risk than shopping.

Daily vaccination rate is dipping on the average and peaks, but we're still bouncing around 2-3+ Million a day. Our lows are getting a bit more variable, but they seem to still be mostly trending up or staying steady. A flat daily curve is probably expected until Kids are eligible, but they're only 20% or so of the population. But they're also most likely to have vaccinations required for school. Also, you may have college kids who are waiting to come home to get their vaccination shot (like mine did yesterday), even though he could have gotten one shot up there, but would have had to figure out round 2 down here with a ticking clock.

If you just look at it as a 2-3Million a day range, we've mostly been in that ball park or higher since Late Feb / Early March. So, at least two full months of a similar rate. It will drop off a bit, but I think we'll see a somewhat steady flow for a bit. The real issues are rural areas where people don't want to work too hard to chase one down, or may still be hesitant. We talked about that in the other thread, but even in Montana, the vaccination rate among the elderly (65+) is very high in some counties. Like near 100%

 

[DaveXA]

It's still iffy how much the masks really help. We suspect that they do help to a certain degree. But frankly...I'd rather hang out with a random person who is vaccinated, neither of us wearing masks than to hang out with someone with someone unvaccinated, both of us wearing masks. Have a vaccination card verification system. It can be done. Those that have been vaccinated can fly, and those that haven't can't. If we are really looking out for the health of our flight attendants...I think that's the route to go. Of course that wouldn't happen...because of the airlines don't want discrimination suits.

They won't have to worry about suits if it's enforced properly. If they don't do it, it's because it would possibly cost them a lot of money. What they should do is get the TSA to enforce the vaccination requirement. If you want to get past security, you have to be vaccinated. The questions are, how is that implemented, how long does it last, and what are the penalties for non-compliance.

At least that how I see it.

 

[sammymvpknight]

They won't have to worry about suits if it's enforced properly. If they don't do it, it's because it would possibly cost them a lot of money. What they should do is get the TSA to enforce the vaccination requirement. If you want to get past security, you have to be vaccinated. The questions are, how is that implemented, how long does it last, and what are the penalties for non-compliance.

At least that how I see it.

This is a good idea. If TSA precheck can exhaustively evaluate our national security risk...could they not also determine our vaccination status? It would make spontaneous flights significantly more challenging, as it'd essentially be like everyone trying to get a passport. I'd imagine that the personal required to pull that off in TSA would be challenging, but it would be best for screenings to be performed before someone made it to the airport.

 

[buzd]

Have a vaccination card verification system.

This. Put them everywhere.

Heck, put a (edit: another) chip in the vaccine so we don't have to carry a card.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I have flown in the last month and a half and can tell you, wearing a mask for hours on a plane is not a good thing at all. It is kind of terrible, actually.

It may be terrible to you but honestly people wearing masks on planes is one of the greatest things to have ever happened during COVID (in addition to not having traffic). People are disgusting and always get on planes sick, hacking, blowing snot, sneezing, etc. I personally love it and will probably keep doing it.

Also, I am fully vaccinated and I agree that once we get to a point where vaccines are available to all who want them and people just aren't getting them, then the mask mandate should be lifted and those who remain unvaxxed because they are too stupid to believe science, should just deal with the cards falling where they may. I also kinda feel like they shouldn't be able to seek out medical care either if they get a serious case of COVID due to their refusal to get vaccinated, even though that would never happen.

Let me be clear and say I mean the people who refuse to get vaccinated because they are too stupid to believe science or think that they "have a good chance of surviving it". Not those who can't due to some other legitimate reason.

 

[superchuck500]

It's still iffy how much the masks really help. We suspect that they do help to a certain degree. But frankly...I'd rather hang out with a random person who is vaccinated, neither of us wearing masks than to hang out with someone with someone unvaccinated, both of us wearing masks. Have a vaccination card verification system. It can be done. Those that have been vaccinated can fly, and those that haven't can't. If we are really looking out for the health of our flight attendants...I think that's the route to go. Of course that wouldn't happen...because of the airlines don't want discrimination suits.

I don't think there's much real risk of discrimination suits, but I don't think it will happen because the airlines have just gotten through such a rough financial time and leisure travel is the only thing keeping them afloat (as business travel has largely not returned yet). A vaccination requirement would be controversial for them in the public discourse, but I also think it would be damaging to their passenger counts. Perhaps that will change when we get our numbers up later in the year.