COVID-19 Outbreak Information Updates (Reboot) [over 150.000,000 US cases (est.), 6,422,520 US hospitilizations, 1,148,691 US deaths.] (16 Viewers)

[Infoman]

Part of the problem is the way public speakers/representatives like Fauci have to closely parse every sentence they speak. It leads you to be technically correct, but give the completely opposite initial impression to the one you wanted to give. Then you're stuck trying to deal with that percentage of people where the 'initial impression' is all they're ever going to get.

Does a mask "protect you like people think it will.."? No. A mask is by no means a magic shield. Does it protect other people from [i[you[/i]? Yes, that's the point. But again, no magic shield.

What we lack are good science journalists. People with the knack for clear speaking who also understand (at least enough of) the underlying science to give the correct impression right off the bat.

It's like trying to explain something to a 5th grader or an evil genie who you know is going to run with the most contrary, oddball interpretation of your words.

No doubt... But the message early on (IMO) didn't need parsing... It was general, very clear, and based on the science of past pandemics and other corona viruses - and how they spread in the general population. The message was very clear. By Faucci and the USSG... Don't buy them... they don't help... It may make it worse... etc. The USSG literally Tweets - "Stop buying Masks - They are not EFFECTIVE in preventing the spread of this Corona Virus in the general public"... Nope - No parsing needed there either.

The message now is (180) but also clear and doesn't need parsing... Wear one, or you are risking lives...

In the average person... this chasm of a difference in message in a short period of relative time is going to create skepticism and eventually distrust...

And yes, the lack of a truly reputable scientific journalistic source - makes this much worse.

 

[ktulu909]

No doubt... But the message early on (IMO) didn't need parsing... It was general, very clear, and based on the science of past pandemics and other corona viruses - and how they in the general population. The message was very clear. By Faucci and the USSG... Don't buy them... they don't help... It may make it worse... etc.

The message now is (180) but also clear and doesn't need parsing... Wear one, or you are risking lives...

In the average person... this chasm of a difference in message in a short period of relative time is going to create skepticism and eventually distrust...

And yes, the lack of a truly reputable scientific journalistic source - makes this much worse.

I think the message was put out because Americans are incapable of just purchasing only what they need, which would have left an even more severe shortage in healthcare. You remember toilet paper right? When I went to pick up a few masks on March 1st, I was told by a Lowes employee (my ex wife) that a single person came in and bought every singe mask in the store and was running all over town doing the same at other locations. I hit up 7 places that day. Not a single mask to be found.

 

[Infoman]

I think the message was put out because Americans are incapable of just purchasing only what they need, which would have left an even more severe shortage in healthcare. You remember toilet paper right? When I went to pick up a few masks on March 1st, I was told by a Lowes employee (my ex wife) that a single person came in and bought every singe mask in the store and was running all over town doing the same at other locations. I hit up 7 places that day. Not a single mask to be found.

Okay... but if that's the case... We were lied to by the USSG and Faucci in the initial outbreak of a deadly pandemic "so we wouldn't create a panic buying situation" (sound like a familiar accusation?)

And if they lied to us - even to save PPE for the medical community (and that's a completely logical reason IMO) - and mask wearing in public was scientifically known to stop the spread, and would potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives - and not wearing one is akin to killing people....

Then Faucci and the USSG need to be held accountable for that lie and - the deaths it caused... right? On top of that... If that is the case... Why should we trust either now?

Purposefully Sacrificing lives to avoid a public panic is not acceptable? Correct?

 

[Taurus]

Okay... but if that's the case... We were lied to by the USSG and Faucci in the initial outbreak of a deadly pandemic "so we wouldn't create a panic buying situation" (sound like a familiar accusation?)

And if they lied to us - even to save PPE for the medical community (and that's completely logical IMO) - and mask wearing in public was scientifically known to stop the spread and to save lives - and not wearing one is akin to killing people....

Then Faucci and the USSG need to be held accountable for that lie and the deaths it caused... right?

They sure's hell need to be held accountable for a failure to clearly express the truth.

Like with the genie, it's really hard to damn-fool proof your message. Yet I agree, they should've done better.

Something along the lines of "N95 masks are overkill for the public. They're designed for medical personnel and should be reserved for them. Again, you don't need an N95 mask, leave them for the front-line workers. What John and Jane Citizen need is a well-fitted medical grade mask. Or a double-layer cloth one. Failing that, just about anything that stops cough and sneeze droplets from traveling very far."

Even then, a certain segment is going to go all conspiracy theory and say "That's what they want us to think! N95's are the only masks that make a difference! They want us to walk around in cheesy cloth masks so we get sick and Bill Gates can implant Microsoft 5G suppositories up our arses!"

 

[Eeyore]

Oops!

Man Who Called COVID a 'Hoax' Feels Guilty After He and 13 Family Members Test Positive — and 2 Die

"The feeling that I have is kind of like what, I would say, a drunk driver would have if they killed their family," says Tony Green, who hosted the family gathering that led to their infections

people.com

 

[Saint by the Bay]

If it was true that the early recommendation against masks was due to shortages of PPE as they have claimed, then they should absolutely be held accountable for that. I don't think there is anything they could have said to prevent selfish people from hoarding masks, but the American people still deserved honesty.

I tend to think they just don't want to admit the pre-March science was wrong/incomplete and the PPE explanation is an excuse, but if you're going to make the claim then face the consequences.

 

[DaveXA]

Oops!

Man Who Called COVID a 'Hoax' Feels Guilty After He and 13 Family Members Test Positive — and 2 Die

"The feeling that I have is kind of like what, I would say, a drunk driver would have if they killed their family," says Tony Green, who hosted the family gathering that led to their infections

people.com

If people still think it's a hoax, or we're being lied to at this point, they deserve nothing less. Harsh, yes, but it's how I feel about reckless people who don't give a shirt about those around them.

 

[St. Widge]

If it was true that the early recommendation against masks was due to shortages of PPE as they have claimed, then they should absolutely be held accountable for that. I don't think there is anything they could have said to prevent selfish people from hoarding masks, but the American people still deserved honesty.

I tend to think they just don't want to admit the pre-March science was wrong/incomplete and the PPE explanation is an excuse, but if you're going to make the claim then face the consequences.

I don't recall all the details of the early days or the information that came out, but my recollection was that the implication was that N95 masks would not be effective for the general public to protect themselves because they didn't know how to properly wear them and would touch the mask resulting in possibly more risk of exposure than they otherwise would have gotten. So, in that context, it would make sense to reserve N95 masks for health care workers who know how to use them and won't increase their own risk by wearing them.

And, the truth is that I don't think anyone has changed that position as far as saying that the general public should be wearing N95 masks to protect themselves from COVID. I mean, it should work since it has been shown to protect front line medical workers, but I think the thinking is both that the general public won't use them properly and if we social distance our risk is relatively low even without a N95 mask. Unlike front line health care workers who are knowingly around people who are COVID positive and can not social distance from them while giving care. Also, they are trained to use the masks properly so as to not increase their risk of infection by using the mask wrong.

I could have the details wrong, but I think that is what was said and the basis of it. But, as Taurus mentioned, it's hard for the general public to parse all that information. What they heard, and, therefore, continue to believe is, Dr. Fauci said masks don't work and now he is trying to tell us to wear masks. So he must be part of the deep state that is trying to take our rights.

That being said, if the real reason is because they were lying and just wanted to keep them for front line workers, that was wrong and the government shouldn't be in the practice of lying to its citizens for any reason. People as a group are dumb animals and probably won't do the right thing, but you have to give them a chance to do so. Anyway, I know at some point no stores would sell N95 masks to anyone but hospitals and health care workers so I don't see the point in the alleged lie anyway.

What has changed is the science showing that wearing a cotton or paper face covering, not an N95 mask, slows the spread and helps to protect other people from getting the virus. (I suspect it does help the wearer some too, but not enough to be statistically relevant.) But, people are incapable of parsing the difference between wearing a N95 mask to protect yourself as opposed to wearing a cloth or paper face covering to protect others.

And, it doesn't help when some people push an anti-mask agenda and spread it using fake experts on Facebook to confuse this issue in order to score political points.

 

[J.T.]

Updated Info on some major Western European Countries and rising case counts in the last 14 days:

The United Kingdom + 146%
France + 47%
Italy + 191%
Spain - 7% (But higher now than their Spring peak)

The United States is + 21%

I don't think many people in the UK, France and Italy are making many hoax arguments and really not many people in the USA either. I like to look at trends and numbers. They are not good here, they are worse in some areas that have been hit very hard.

I mean, just look at the graphics. This is NOT just a USA problem and some would have you believe that others are doing so much better. Spain, France and the UK have MORE new cases now than they had during their Spring peaks. The USA is still under its Spring peak numbers. Italy is spiking and is nearing its Spring peak again. (The overall rate of new infections, normed for population, is HIGHER in the UK and France, than the USA and is getting close in Spain and Italy.)

The Spikes in the UK and Italy are staggering in their trajectories, France not far off.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Interesting article on schooling

I’d like to hear parents/teachers opinions on this
=============================

CHICAGO (AP) — Toys that look like weapons. Barefoot students. Disruptive imagery in the background. Pets roaming the room. All a clear violation of rules inside most American classrooms. But that was when most American students were actually inside schools.

How do standards like these translate when everyone is logging on from home? Schools are struggling to figure it out this fall — yet another adaptation demanded of educators during the coronavirus pandemic.

In the learn-from-home world, teachers and experts can easily imagine the friction of extending regular classroom discipline into young people’s previously private spaces.

Can students have posters visible in the background backing social or political movements that others disagree with or find racist?

Can they wear clothes at home that are banned from classrooms? How can a teacher respond when a student says or does something that the instructor deems rude, offensive or threatening?

Weeks into the fall semester, a growing number of school officials are navigating those grey areas.

In Colorado, Maryland and Pennsylvania, school administrators asked police to investigate separate incidents of toy guns, BB guns and a suspected rifle visible on video feeds from students’ homes.

The actions raised complaints that they had overreacted to something that didn’t threaten either those students or their classmates.

There’s more. A Florida school district promised an investigation of an apparent high school student shouting racial slurs over a virtual class session.

A Texas teacher was put on leave after parents noticed her virtual classroom is decorated with (virtual) posters backing LGBTQ rights and the Black Lives Matter movement..........

When school is home and home is school, which rules prevail?

CHICAGO (AP) — Toys that look like weapons. Barefoot students. Disruptive imagery in the background. Pets roaming the room.

apnews.com

i thought they would be some more discussion about this

it was another aspect of this stay at home environment that I didn't even think about

This article is about kids and school but imagine it's happened with adults and work too

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I don't recall all the details of the early days or the information that came out, but my recollection was that the implication was that N95 masks would not be effective for the general public to protect themselves because they didn't know how to properly wear them and would touch the mask resulting in possibly more risk of exposure than they otherwise would have gotten. So, in that context, it would make sense to reserve N95 masks for health care workers who know how to use them and won't increase their own risk by wearing them.

And, the truth is that I don't think anyone has changed that position as far as saying that the general public should be wearing N95 masks to protect themselves from COVID. I mean, it should work since it has been shown to protect front line medical workers, but I think the thinking is both that the general public won't use them properly and if we social distance our risk is relatively low even without a N95 mask. Unlike front line health care workers who are knowingly around people who are COVID positive and can not social distance from them while giving care. Also, they are trained to use the masks properly so as to not increase their risk of infection by using the mask wrong.

I could have the details wrong, but I think that is what was said and the basis of it. But, as Taurus mentioned, it's hard for the general public to parse all that information. What they heard, and, therefore, continue to believe is, Dr. Fauci said masks don't work and now he is trying to tell us to wear masks. So he must be part of the deep state that is trying to take our rights.

That being said, if the real reason is because they were lying and just wanted to keep them for front line workers, that was wrong and the government shouldn't be in the practice of lying to its citizens for any reason. People as a group are dumb animals and probably won't do the right thing, but you have to give them a chance to do so. Anyway, I know at some point no stores would sell N95 masks to anyone but hospitals and health care workers so I don't see the point in the alleged lie anyway.

What has changed is the science showing that wearing a cotton or paper face covering, not an N95 mask, slows the spread and helps to protect other people from getting the virus. (I suspect it does help the wearer some too, but not enough to be statistically relevant.) But, people are incapable of parsing the difference between wearing a N95 mask to protect yourself as opposed to wearing a cloth or paper face covering to protect others.

And, it doesn't help when some people push an anti-mask agenda and spread it using fake experts on Facebook to confuse this issue in order to score political points.

In February and March, they were saying masks don't work. and they admit that. They claim it was because they didn't want a run on PPE at a time when healthcare workers needed it. By April they were recommending masks. The actual recommendation came from the CDC on April 3rd. That is when they started getting politicized. In fact, in June it was directly stated that people only wear them to make a certain person look bad, and it was that certain person who said it.

So here's the reality, as I see it. The medical community was wrong in February and March, either due to not knowing enough or on purpose to conserve PPE. By mid-March, we knew the virus was airborne and by late March had pretty good science that masks slow but doesn't completely stop it. The CDC makes their recommendation at the beginning of April and the politicization of masks begin.

I can't even really understand why masks were politicized. I understand the issue with restrictions. There was an economic and thus political case there. Masks just make no sense as the political or cultural hill to die on.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Wow, those curves look awful for Europe.

 

[St. Widge]

In February and March, they were saying masks don't work. and they admit that. They claim it was because they didn't want a run on PPE at a time when healthcare workers needed it. By April they were recommending masks. The actual recommendation came from the CDC on April 3rd. That is when they started getting politicized. In fact, in June it was directly stated that people only wear them to make a certain person look bad, and it was that certain person who said it.

So here's the reality, as I see it. The medical community was wrong in February and March, either due to not knowing enough or on purpose to conserve PPE. By mid-March, we knew the virus was airborne and by late March had pretty good science that masks slow but doesn't completely stop it. The CDC makes their recommendation at the beginning of April and the politicization of masks begin.

I can't even really understand why masks were politicized. I understand the issue with restrictions. There was an economic and thus political case there. Masks just make no sense as the political or cultural hill to die on.

Yeah but I think in February and March that they were saying that medical and N95 masks won't work to protect you from the virus and that hasn't changed. What has changed is that they wee saying masks won't protect others but now they have done studies showing that wearing any kind of cloth or paper mask will help to reduce the risk of transmitting the virus to others. So that has changed.

Anyway, I'm not sure why masks have been politicized either. Seems like an odd thing to do. But, I guess it hits a nerve with a certain segment of the population that hates the idea of the "nanny state" telling them they have to wear seat belts, helmets, etc. and those same folks happen to fall into the based of certain political leaders. So, it's just another way to energize that base to get out to vote.

And, I mean ultimately, regardless of who was right or wrong with what they said in the past or why someone might try to use it to political advantage, the fact is that we now have the science to back up the fact that wearing masks reduces the spread of COVID. So it should be a no brainer for people to wear masks. But, people choose wanton ignorance instead.

 

[buzd]

Wow, those curves look awful for Europe.

They don't look as bad for the US because we never really went down as much.

 

[J.T.]

So need to lay on the therapy couch here a moment.

One of my very good friends from growing up (we have known each other since elementary school, became good friends in junior high and high school, continued to be good friends for many years, and have stayed in touch after I left New Orleans) was a confirmed bachelor for many years. Well, he's finally getting married and I'm really happy for him. My wife and I have spent time with him and his fiance' (including a weekend they stayed with us the year before last) and we are absolutely looking forward to their wedding.

The wedding is in December and I was hoping they would postpone it. Coincidentally enough (I'm 47, don't have too many wedding invites anymore) another long-time friend was supposed to be getting married this month (October) but she postponed it due to Covid. But my other friend has no intentions of postponing. And now I have received an invite to a guys' weekend (i.e. 'bachelor party') next month and I see on the invite list a lot of good friends that I rarely (if ever) see any more. I don't know how many people will be there, but I suspect it will be more than a handful.

Take away Covid, and I'm there for all of this. We would be brining the family into town for the wedding (my kids would stay with my parents) and we'd be really excited for the event. I'd definitely get a pass from the wife for the guys' weekend and I know it would be a time to spend with some people I truly love and miss. You don't get many opportunities like that as you get older.

But fork this damn Covid situation. We have been being very sensible about it - no, we're not on complete lockdown, but everything we do is based on a Covid risk-assessment. We go out to eat only when we can eat outdoors. I'm still working from home. My kids are in school but there are safeguards and protocols. We are keeping socializing to a minimum (and when we do, it's based on sensible assessment) and we haven't traveled except to a family place in North Carolina that we can drive to and doesn't require a hotel.

There's no way I can justify attending these activities based on how we have been dealing with this. The weekend next month will be in common living quarters (probably a rental house) with a number of people doing whatever they're doing in their lives, many of which probably aren't being cautious (deciding to attend this is certain a sign that they're not especially cautious). And then the wedding will likely be well attended and given that this will be many friends (and parents of friends) that I have known for decades, the temptations for close contact (lots of hugs and handshakes to be sure) will be too great to resist.

As much as I wish that these things would be postponed, that isn't my call. I just don't see how I can expose my wife and kids to something that is substantially beyond any risk that we have been willing to take, based on our mutual views about risk and the mitigation we have done to date. So it looks like I'm going to have to decline and just not be there. And that's such a shame. These kinds of joyous gatherings of longtime, childhood friends (the kind that you typically just don't have in your adult-life circles) are very rare the older you get.

And I have to tell my very good friend that I won't be able to be there at his wedding. That really sucks.

Buy up about two dozen of those Rapid Covid Tests. Have everybody take a test when they show up for the party weekend. If they pass, they can stay and party, at a remote location, if not, they go home.