Cultural Misappropiation (1 Viewer)

[LombardiGras]

Do you want those cultures taught with respect, knowledge, inclusion, sincerity, appreciation, awareness, etc?

Do I need to quote my post where I said that teaching about "cultural misappropriation" is not a prerequisite for those principles, and that its incompatible with some of them?

 

[RazorOye]

Do I need to quote my post where I said that teaching about "cultural misappropriation" is not a prerequisite for those principles, and that its incompatible with some of them?

So, that's a "yes" you'd like these things taught with cultural awareness, I'll assume.

That's all I was trying to get at. We'd rather teach kids about other cultures (which you agree with) with cultural respect and awareness (which you agree with) and without misappropriating (which you also agree with).

Thanks,

The rest is - as I said initially - you shouting at the wind, to nobody in particular here, because you'd rather have a disagreement than a discussion. You're so invested in his persona of board contrarian, that you launched into this thread with a half-formed idea, driven by a seeming paucity of evidence/experience, when you might've been able to participate in a more constructive discussion that starts with most all of us here having the same intentions around cultural appreciation.

There's still time.

edit: I still don't think, though, that you have a functional idea about the definitions at hand. Perhaps a bit of time invested in learning about them would help.

 

[LombardiGras]

So, that's a "yes" you'd like these things taught with cultural awareness, I'll assume.

That's all I was trying to get at. We'd rather teach kids about other cultures (which you agree with) with cultural respect and awareness (which you agree with) and without misappropriating (which you also agree with).

The rest is - as I said initially - you shouting at the wind, to nobody in particular here, because you'd rather have a disagreement than a discussion.

Thanks.

I didn't agree with what you said about misappropriating. I don't trust you or anyone else to be the arbiter of what constitutes someone else's sincerity, awareness, appreciation, etc. Guido named dropped Iggy Azelea as cultural appropriation. Is Mac Miller cultural appropriation too? How about Mackelmore? You'll get different answers depending on who you ask. Its better to stick to teaching about other cultures without policing who can or can't participate in various customs/traditions and to what extent.

 

[LombardiGras]

I said misappropriation should be avoided, and preferred cultural awareness, exchange, appreciation.

You'd rather misappropriation instead of awareness, exchange, appreciation? Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have assumed that you felt that way.

Insert shark jumping graphic here

 

[RazorOye]

Insert shark jumping graphic here

considering how stridently you came into this thread, it seems there wasn't much substance behind it.

I'll try again....

we need to talk about negative examples of cultural disrespect and positive examples of cultural respect. There's a difference between blackface and minstrel shows and, to use an example you cited, Macklemore. And we need to able to talk about this spectrum. Otherwise, something as dynamic as cultural differences becomes an argument of absolutes, a strictly dichotomous binary that doesn't actually exist in reality. I assume you don't want them all treated the same. I assume you don't want Macklemore being castigated in the same way that minstrel shows have now been, historically. How else can we have this discussion without words? Now, if you think we shouldn't have this discussion, then say so. But I'd counter that if we don't distinguish between examples of respect and disrespect, then we don't have a way to differentiate between the two. And I think that's incredibly harmful.

we are limited by words, imprecise as they are (and you seem to suggest a post-structural critique of language, and I'm totally on board with this)

so, the words/phrases are "cultural appropriation" and "cultural misappropriation" vs. "cultural awareness" and "cultural exchange"

if you'd rather "cultural respect" and "cultural disrespect" that's fine by me

or, provide alternative words/phrases of your own - I'm not married to the current parlance

we need to be able to talk about minstrel shows, for example, and talk about how they are disrepectful and racist and stereotypical. And we need language to do that. We can't just pretend that every example of cultural interchange is positive.

We need to talk about how this:

is culturally disrespectful and why there was a need to change to this:

there's a huge difference between those two images - and kids can see this.

Both of those images are not the same, in a number of ways. We need to be able to talk about how the latter is more respectful and less racist than the former. And we need words to do so.

If you'd rather come up with different words to do so, then tell me what you'd prefer and maybe we'll use those.

I don't care about the language. I care that there is language. I care that there is a discussion. I would hope that you felt the same, because it seems you have the same ends in mind - but you keep avoiding things just so you can disagree. I've provided a fair amount of reasonable content, and you keep ignoring it. I don't know if it's because you don't want to. Or it's because you've boxed yourself into a corner and there's no real way out or around.

But my goal isn't an "intellectual beatdown" to use your language, when you just wanted to gloat over another poster. I actually want a discussion.

Because I think this work is extremely important. Inclusivity, empathy are central to me and my work. I'd rather have a discussion - even if it ends in disagreement, so long as it's in good faith - than whatever this exchange is.

 

[SystemShock]

As long as it's Arkansas hillbillies, cultural appropriation is OK.
As long as it's Bugs Bunny, gender appropriation is OK.
As long as it's Looney Tunes, it's OK.
- Stephen Spielburg (misquoted)


Seriously, ya'll, haven't you noticed that nobody cries foul if people use dum-bazz redneck or dim-witted toothless Cajun sterotypes?

Who created them?

 

[RazorOye]

it seems to come down to whether or not we/you believe that we should talk about examples of cultural ignorance, racism, stereotypes, etc to kids or not.

If you think it's something we need to discuss and for kids to be aware of, then we'll need words to do so.

If you think it's something that kids cannot handle and we should avoid bringing up, I'd disagree.

I've worked with kids who have been exposed to racism and have been reduced to stereotypes - incl by teachers - at pretty young ages.

Maybe if you don't spend a lot of time around kids from minority backgrounds, you aren't aware of the racism and discrimination and stereotyping many of them have endured. But a lot of them have, and being able to talk to them about it, talk to other kids about it, and letting them talk about it themselves is important.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Perhaps I missed it, but did y'all see where Al Roker got called out for cultural appropriation for dressing up as Doc from Back to the Future for Halloween?





Now, wait, Al, people were all upset last year over kids wearing wigs to look like Moana, even though they weren't coloring their faces. You can't have it both ways.

https://www.click2houston.com/enter...egyn-kelly-fallout-039just-don039t-color-your

you were on much firmer ground with the hillbilly stuff - even though it's not appropriation, it's just condescension

and let me add that i get the impulse to want a "one size fits all" rule
it would make complex interactions much simpler
now i do realize that most reverse racism and whataboutist claims are just a dodge from having to admit some difficult truths
BUT sometimes it's just people looking at the surface of things and wanting broad 'equality' applications
BUT the essential problems with cultural appropriation, is that one group has suppressed another's culture then turns around and wants to costume in it
blackface: you can't come into this club or perform on this stage, but we're going to steal your songs and mimic you
headdresses/Pocahontas costumes - we're going to eradicate your people and those who survive we're going to put in christian schools and try to erase all of your culture, but it's cool if i put feathers in my hair and do a rain dance, yeah?

now back to Doc Brown, to the best of my knowledge theoretical physicists have never really been an oppressed people whose culture has previously been stolen
now if we get to a place where Trump starts rounding up & jailing scientists and then a few decades later wearing lab coats becomes kitsch, then yes, at that point the scientist culture might be deemed appropriated

 

[SystemShock]

Well, I get not one, but two days every year in which the culture I grew up with is grossly misappropriated, even by the very people to whom the culture belongs: 5th of May and Day of the Dead.

Cinco de Mayo was introduced in the U.S. as an advertising campaign for Corona, which really is one of the worse beers from México. Nowadays with the internet, people can find out what the significance of the 5th of May is for Mexicans, but back when Corona started the campaign, no one knew what the holiday was. They just thought "fiesta", and to top it off, they put a freaking lime wedge in the beer because "that's what they do in México". I remember the first time I was at a bar (I think it was Cafe Banquette) and a friend of mine ordered a Corona, and paid like $3 bucks for it (this was 1984)... I asked him "why are you drinking that sheet, and paying $3 bucks for it?" He asks me "isn't this the best beer of México?" and I told him "no, it's piss".

Fast forward 30-some years, and there are bars in México that serve Coronas with a wedge of lime.

Then there is Day of the Dead. Coco notwithstanding (biggest box office in Mexican history, btw), this is one holiday that even Mexicans are misappropriating. I know Day of the Dead as Janal Pixan (in Maya, food of the souls or for the souls) a tradition that goes back hundreds of years, of remembering and honoring your dead with makeshift altars, usually at the place of burial. Still to this day, people in small towns unearth the remains of their dead relatives to to clean them up, part of the original ritual. No one painted their faces, or had parades... it was all very solemn.

But nowadays, even in my hometown, we have a parade, we have tours to the cemeteries so tourists can see the altars...

Now, how do I feel about it? Well, part of me gets his jimmies rustled because "they don't get it right"... the other part likes the idea of people being aware of these wonderful traditions from the place I was born... it helps that stuff like Coco comes out of it

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Well, I get not one, but two days every year in which the culture I grew up with is grossly misappropriated, even by the very people to whom the culture belongs: 5th of May and Day of the Dead.

Cinco de Mayo was introduced in the U.S. as an advertising campaign for Corona, which really is one of the worse beers from México. Nowadays with the internet, people can find out what the significance of the 5th of May is for Mexicans, but back when Corona started the campaign, no one knew what the holiday was. They just thought "fiesta", and to top it off, they put a freaking lime wedge in the beer because "that's what they do in México". I remember the first time I was at a bar (I think it was Cafe Banquette) and a friend of mine ordered a Corona, and paid like $3 bucks for it (this was 1984)... I asked him "why are you drinking that shirt, and paying $3 bucks for it?" He asks me "isn't this the best beer of México?" and I told him "no, it's piss".

Fast forward 30-some years, and there are bars in México that serve Coronas with a wedge of lime.

Then there is Day of the Dead. Coco notwithstanding (biggest box office in Mexican history, btw), this is one holiday that even Mexicans are misappropriating. I know Day of the Dead as Janal Pixan (in Maya, food of the souls or for the souls) a tradition that goes back hundreds of years, of remembering and honoring your dead with makeshift altars, usually at the place of burial. Still to this day, people in small towns unearth the remains of their dead relatives to to clean them up, part of the original ritual. No one painted their faces, or had parades... it was all very solemn.

But nowadays, even in my hometown, we have a parade, we have tours to the cemeteries so tourists can see the altars...

Now, how do I feel about it? Well, part of me gets his jimmies rustled because "they don't get it right"... the other part likes the idea of people being aware of these wonderful traditions from the place I was born... it helps that stuff like Coco comes out of it

good points, and yes; it's all very complicated
you bring up holidays and we should probably recognize that christmas and easter are probably come of the most egregious cultural appropriations ever (oh keep your eyes in your head, it's true)
the idea of a 'war on christmas' is particularly galling since christians just straight up stole the holiday & many of its trappings from pagans
same with easter

 

[MSUSousaphone]

The OP is insightful and....man....just amazing. Such a great analogy.

I can't imagine how this got to four pages with so little likes and one Falcon on the OP....but I'm in a really good place today and loving life so I'm just going to bury my head in the sand and not read on.

If people don't get this post, some force is keeping you from reasoning.

 

[RazorSaint]

blackface, minstrel shows were examples of cultural misappropriation. They weren't forced. They were also problematic.

There's a scale and spectrum here - as with anything else. Not sure why you're seeking to draw this line in absolutes when it doesn't belong. So ALLCAPS declarations and the use of "only" are really out of place here.



nobody has said this that I've seen in this thread

In fact, I said the opposite. And so did the article I quoted - I even excerpted that specific passage. Perhaps you missed it or maybe you saw it and decided to just dismiss it. But it was there.

So, I'm not sure who you're talking to/about in this thread. Or maybe it's a general point, but even then - I don't see this as a prevailing opinion at all.

It's just a general point. I haven't read the entire thread. I just know that sometimes people go overboard. Remember the white taco truck owners that were forced to shut down his business because white people shouldn't sell tacos? Or the white guy that was confronted because he has dreads? To me that's just bullying.

 

[RazorOye]

It's just a general point. I haven't read the entire thread.

okay, fair enough

I just know that sometimes people go overboard.

of course that's the case. This is the case with anything, but that doesn't mean - I don't think - that we should just stop altogether.

We're a bunch of empiricists and positivists trying to come to terms with an increasingly fragmented reality.

There's going to be growing pains and I think there are times when I absolutely agree that people go overboard. But that doesn't mean that the dialogue gets abandoned entirely and we still have to be aware of and respectful of cultural difference - and I fully realize that there are cultures that have practices that are seen as immoral and unethical. These problematize the discussion, too. But that doesn't mean the discussion should stop - from the other 'side' - either.

And I don't think that zero sum, either/or absolutes help frame the discussion helpfully either.

And judging by your response here, I don't think you do, either.

So if that's the case, why not have a discussion instead of presuming disagreement and intent? I don't get that...

 

[RazorSaint]

okay, fair enough

I just know that sometimes people go overboard.

Nice.

One thing I've noticed about cultural appropriation is that apparently only whites are guilty of it. Do you know of any non-whites that have been accused of cultural appropriation? Maybe it happens a lot and I just missed it.

 

[RazorOye]

Nice.

One thing I've noticed about cultural appropriation is that apparently only whites are guilty of it. Do you know of any non-whites that have been accused of cultural appropriation? Maybe it happens a lot and I just missed it.

I didn't meant to submit the post as it was - I added to it above, just fyi

as for your second question, you don't have to look beyond this very thread to see an example in someone else's experience

and in mine, yes I have. There have been two separate issues in my own direct experience of visible minorities (from outside the cultures in question) who have misappropriated or been disrespectful. Black kids about Asians, in one example. Asians are actually a frequent target. In another example, a Muslim kid about an Egyptian Christian who was quite orthodox. When I was teaching in Houston, black kids and Hispanic kids - going both ways in various cases there.

There are other examples, and it probably happens more than you seem to think.

This isn't something exclusively white - it's often white, because it's often tied to power/dominant discourses/numbers in a US and Canadian context. I wouldn't presume to speak beyond that, but System has alluded to it, so perhaps he could add to it.