Dalton - we are a better team (1 Viewer)

[lapaz]

Does he really tho? Or is this another one of those feeling based claims?

Our offense w/ JW hums when we spread the field and get WRs upfield. It sputters when we crowd our own LOS and run 4 curls...that's an easy obvious observation

It’s based on observations. I haven’t seen our offense humming with Jameis. Dalton just did better without Thomas and Kamara. If not for the refs helping the Vikes and Olave not getting his 2nd foot down on a good pass, we might’ve won that game.

Contrary to how people are people are trying to make it more than what it is, we haven't seen anything like the 4th quarter of the Atlanta game since Brees' prime.

But the truth is, that doesn't line up with the point that was being made. We are trying to now put context around why Dalton went 3 & Out on all but 1 drive in the 1st half when that same energy isn't applied across the board. No matter how you feel about any of the QBs, evaluation should always be objective and based on facts.

The 4th Quarter against Atlanta was what happens when teams play very soft prevent defense. It isn't representative of the normal play against regular defenses. Atlanta has a recent history of playing too soft with a lead.

 

[lapaz]

Does he really tho? Or is this another one of those feeling based claims?

Our offense w/ JW hums when we spread the field and get WRs upfield. It sputters when we crowd our own LOS and run 4 curls...that's an easy obvious observation

Dalton's stats for the game support that he had a very good game with a 108.6 QB rating.

andy dalton stats - Google Search

That QB rating doesn't tell the whole story, but it was apparent to me that he ran the offense better, and he did it without 2 of our best weapons.

 

[jahsoul357]

The 4th Quarter against Atlanta was what happens when teams play very soft prevent defense. It isn't representative of the normal play against regular defenses. Atlanta has a recent history of playing too soft with a lead.

When has a "prevent" defense allowed a 4 play, 75 yard TD drive? It hasn't; prevent allows chunk plays to avoid giving up the big plays but we got within a single score on big plays
Also, why would Atlanta go to a soft defense up a single score with 7 minutes left in the game? They wouldn't and they didn't

We just did something that we haven't done all game. Play with tempo, spread out the field, stretched it vertically, which allowed those dump offs when needed to Kamara and Johnson. That should be the base of our passing offense and once upon a time, it was.

 

[No2DC]

It was the Falcons. The G.O.A.T.s of choke artistry.

It was a win

 

[Jesse Custer]

The 4th Quarter against Atlanta was what happens when teams play very soft prevent defense. It isn't representative of the normal play against regular defenses. Atlanta has a recent history of playing too soft with a lead.

They weren't playing prevent, but don't let me get in the way of your biases.

 

[CowtownSaint]

They weren't playing prevent, but don't let me get in the way of your biases.

Ohh they were playing prevent. They were playing very very soft zone trying to keep everything in front of them that’s literally the definition of prevent, keeping it in front of you and preventing a big play.

It seems it was obvious they let off the gas. Carolina started to do that too and got back into more traditional coverages to shut us down. Doesn’t matter who was playing Qb, the defence did what it did in those games.

 

[lapaz]

They weren't playing prevent, but don't let me get in the way of your biases.

Whatever Atlanta was playing, they were playing bad defense. Besides, that’s about the only quarter of good football that Winston has had. That’s the definition of erratic. We know Winston can produce some fantastic football, but generally it is marginal to poor. We’ve tried tempo since then, and it hasn’t worked well either. Tempo doesn’t replace reading and adjusting to defenses. It is a patch.

Dalton had a good game, and that’s all we need to give us a chance to win a lot of games. He looked comfortable, and way better than Winston has this year, with the exception of the 4th quarter against Atlanta. Dalton should be the starter.

 

[jahsoul357]

Besides, that’s about the only quarter of good football that Winston has had.

Without counting that hail mary type interception, he was 16/23 with a TD and the tipped interceptions in the second half of Panthers game but keep going.

 

[MamaRoux]

I am not sure how anyone can refute this at this point. Pretty much all Saints fans were hoping Jameis could turn it around and be the answer, but it's clear he's not. If the coaching staff can't see that then it's time for them to go as well.

Check it out! IF I were an NFL caliber QB & had my WR's , RBs and TEs comprised of "CGM" Thomas, "Juice" Landry, Chris "OROTY" Olave, Alvin Kamara, Mark Ingram, Lat. Murray, Taysom HILL, Traughtman & Juwan Johnson & the depth of a Harty, T-Quan, Callaway? Baby , I'm Bringing The Wood to EVERY freak'in opponent in The League! This is a game of talented players on every team yet Our SAINTS have elite contributors on both sides of the ball!

This Defense will perform much better once Maye and Adebo finally get back on the field together so we're at solid strength there. Tyrann Matheaus(sp?) is coming alive just now! So? Let's pack those Lunchboxes and give our opponents very long days of struggles!

I BET other teams ( we've seen it begin already) will have their own share of hard luck coming as it just DOES to all but the most fortunate of teams. That's when we begin to see everyone settle out into just which TEAMS are the most coherent and solid! My $s will always be on Our SAINTS (except for last year) so I fully expect The WHODAT NATION to ROAR with excitement in the coming games! AGREED?

 

[StudioSaint]

QB1: 19737 yards on 61.3% (274 YPG)/121 TDS (4.7TD%)/88 INTS (3.5 INT%)/86.9 QB Raiting
QB2: 20618 yards on 62% (257 YPG)/138 TDs (4.9TD%)/100 INTS (3.5 INT%)/85.9 QB Rating

It's crazy how that narrative plays out.

It seems odd to criticize others for allegedly pushing a narrative, while seemingly pushing a narrative. When the vast majority of what any poster posts is focused solely on proving how good a specific player is, it's really hard not to see that as pushing a narrative too. Just saying.

Coaches mostly relying on film evaluation to judge the performance level of a player. They use stats to aid that process, but they don't rely on stats alone and they are given less weight than what they see the player doing.

That should tell everyone all they need to know about how unreliable just using stats by themselves are when it comes to judging the performance of any player, or allegedly "proving" the performance level of a player as in this case.

It's obvious one of the stat lines posted above is for Winston. I don't know who the other stat line is for, but it's obviously going to be for a quarterback who has been referred to as All Pro or Future Hall of Famer.

How many times have ex-coaches, ex-players or credible analysts referred to Winston's performance, not his potential just his actual performance to date, as All Pro or Hall of Fame? I"m not talking about saying he has the "potential" or "talent" to be All Pro or Hall of Fame. I'm asking how many times has anyone said that Winston has been performing at an All Pro or Hall of Fame level.

The fact that Winston has a stat line comparable to any QB that has performance at an All Pro or Hall of Fame level, only proves how unreliable stat lines are at indicating the actual performance level of a QB.

No stats will ever prove that Winston has ever or ever will perform in any way at the same level as any other quarterback with similar stats. You have to watch every play behind those stats for both quarterbacks. If you watch every play by both Winston and any All Pro or Hall of Fame quarterback, the difference in performance level between them is noticeable.

 

[webster]

QB1: 19737 yards on 61.3% (274 YPG)/121 TDS (4.7TD%)/88 INTS (3.5 INT%)/86.9 QB Raiting
QB2: 20618 yards on 62% (257 YPG)/138 TDs (4.9TD%)/100 INTS (3.5 INT%)/85.9 QB Rating

It's crazy how that narrative plays out.

Speaking about narrative.
You know who fumbled the ball more than Jameis? Russ
You know who had more interceptions than Jameis going into the 2019 season since 2015? Big Ben

But I say that to say this. The narrative around Jameis can be "OMG, interceptions/turnovers"

But doing a simple breakdown:


Distance of throws from 2015-2022 arranged by most intermediate throws



2015 - 15 Ints
2016 - 18 Ints
2017 - 11 Ints
2019 - 30 Ints (first year in BA's system)

Just to note:
Carson Palmer 2015 - 11 Ints (2nd full season in BA's system after going 24/22 in 2013 and starting 2014 off 6-0 and throwing 11TDs/3 INTs)

Jameis staying in Tampa would have been a problem. Don't know if they win a chip but if 5103/33TD/30 INT is what he got in what is considered to be the worst season for a QB in that system...smh. I digress...


Who else has thrown the ball further since 2015. We always want to compare him against the "best" QBs but when you put up advanced metrics/stats, things begin to look different and you realize that their "efficiency" is predicated on the dink and dunk but drops with intermediate passing, so our perception is based on raw stats and the highlights ESPN feeds us, hence the reason we want Jameis to call protections, read disguised blitz, etc, etc, while calling Mahomes the greatest QB in the league, who is in an offense that doesn't require him to do much of that..lol (Alex Smith was a million times better at that). But that's another topic for another day.

A simple concept that people don't seem to understand:
Throwing the ball further, more, increases your chances of interceptions and sacks/fumbles.
This is how Peyton Manning (for those who didn't know, QB2 up top is Manning's first 5 years in the league. Again, funny how narratives go) could throw 100 interceptions and Drew Brees his first 5 years here had 79 interceptions and 16 fumbles lost (95 total turnovers). And if you are in an offense predicated on the intermediate ball, guess what, you are bound to have those interceptions.

This is why the interception conversation never bothered me and it really shouldn't have bothered most of us fans that were around before 2016.

This is also why I said that there was less to fix to Jameis than most realize. Having the right offense and personnel would have been way more beneficial than trying to "break someone down to build them up."

You are definitely a JW fan.

 

[StudioSaint]

When has a "prevent" defense allowed a 4 play, 75 yard TD drive? It hasn't;...

Have you actually seen any Saints games since 1978?

Even during the Dome Patrol years, the Saints have had a knack for going into a prevent defensive mode and looking exactly like the Falcons did in the 4th quarter of the first game.

Quick, chunk plays, scoring drives are very common against prevent defenses. That's why there's the joke of "the only thing the prevent defense prevents is winning."

 

[saintsfan78]

There will be plenty of threads about this subject but if Allen puts Jameis back in and he struggles he will lose this fan base and this team.

Dalton actually goes through progressions. Changes the plays at the LOS. It feels like a more settled team. It's one game so let's see what happens. I don't think Dalton is the answer long term but he seems like a smarter more settle QB. A saavy veteran.

Jameis had almost 2 years in this system and Dalton looked better after 4 games in our system.

I bet the NFL insisted the saints not play injured Jameis last sunday

 

[jahsoul357]

It seems odd to criticize others for allegedly pushing a narrative, while seemingly pushing a narrative. When the vast majority of what any poster posts is focused solely on proving how good a specific player is, it's really hard not to see that as pushing a narrative too. Just saying.

Coaches mostly relying on film evaluation to judge the performance level of a player. They use stats to aid that process, but they don't rely on stats alone and they are given less weight than what they see the player doing.

That should tell everyone all they need to know about how unreliable just using stats by themselves are when it comes to judging the performance of any player, or allegedly "proving" the performance level of a player as in this case.

It's obvious one of the stat lines posted above is for Winston. I don't know who the other stat line is for, but it's obviously going to be for a quarterback who has been referred to as All Pro or Future Hall of Famer.

How many times have ex-coaches, ex-players or credible analysts referred to Winston's performance, not his potential just his actual performance to date, as All Pro or Hall of Fame? I"m not talking about saying he has the "potential" or "talent" to be All Pro or Hall of Fame. I'm asking how many times has anyone said that Winston has been performing at an All Pro or Hall of Fame level.

The fact that Winston has a stat line comparable to any QB that has performance at an All Pro or Hall of Fame level, only proves how unreliable stat lines are at indicating the actual performance level of a QB.

No stats will ever prove that Winston has ever or ever will perform in any way at the same level as any other quarterback with similar stats. You have to watch every play behind those stats for both quarterbacks. If you watch every play by both Winston and any All Pro or Hall of Fame quarterback, the difference in performance level between them is noticeable.

That's stat line wasn't put up to "prove" the performance of Jameis against a hall of famer, per se. It was to show that if you call him inaccurate, a historical turnover machine, etc, etc, you have to apply that "evaluation" across the board. If Jameis is a turnover machine, how come Peyton Manning threw interceptions at a higher clip. If Jameis is inaccurate, well.... Tony Dungy said it best, as he was the one to make this comparison. The only true difference between Peyton and Jameis was Peyton played for a better team. What a concept! We can talk about stats being unreliable (when we want them to be..lol) but I posted TD and INT rates for that reason. Let me know how that is unreliable

The major negative that people have said about Jameis' play always comes back to interceptions and I just pointed out how that is overblown topic and shown how we as fans don't or won't properly evaluate and put things into context. In the same post that you quoted, I used advanced stats to point out a simple concept since the dink and dunk has taken over.

But here is the thing, your post is an "emotional" one. I use stats (raw, advanced, and metrics) to say why and you are using your feelings to say why it can't. These same feelings drive the "eye test." And this still doesn't touch on the fact that everyone's view of Jameis is from the 2019 season.

You are definitely a JW fan.

I actually just did my research on him after we picked him up, since I wanted to know what we really had. Imagine that, researching something to get a complete picture.

Still can't negate one things posted.

Have you actually seen any Saints games since 1978?

Even during the Dome Patrol years, the Saints have had a knack for going into a prevent defensive mode and looking exactly like the Falcons did in the 4th quarter of the first game.

Quick, chunk plays, scoring drives are very common against prevent defenses. That's why there's the joke of "the only thing the prevent defense prevents is winning."

I've always thought the prevent was dumb but the Falcons didn't go prevent.

 

[saintsmarchin]

I can't base anything off one game.. but if the next game he doesn't look like a red rider bb gun... and keeps up the red rifle.. then yeah I think you stay on the path.

The whole reason why Winston played hurt was fear of losing his job again.