Defense affecting offensive playcalling "balance" (1 Viewer)

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The Saints defense's inability to stop the big play seems to be a factor in the offensive playcalling.
Why? The answer is not simple.
The following information excludes Thanksgiving games.

1. The defense overall is doing a great job of getting opponents off the field.
They are 8th in the league in fewest 1st downs allowed and time of posession. They are 4th in the league in offensive plays allowed. There is even a decent number of sacks so far with 26, which is 11th league wide. "That painlinkfence guy is crazy! If anything, these numbers show the offense can rely on the defense.", some of you are already saying. If that were all there is, then that quote would be right.

2. The secondary is giving up big plays on a consistent basis. In fact, they are the worst in the league at it. They are last in completions of 40 yards or over. They are also last in allowing TD receptions. This has been happening to the Saints defense since their first play of the year. This also means that teams haven't needed time to score, and that's an important piece to the puzzle.

3. The run defense still needs help by putting 8 in the box. This leaves one FS and 2 corners in the Saints standard package. On obvious passing downs, the Saints drop into their pass coverage mode- deep cover 2 zones, nickle and dime options, .etc. The point is there would be more than 3 in the deep secondary playing pass first.

Ok, so we know teams are scoring quickly, and the run defense frequently pulls our SS out of coverage. What does this have to do with offense? Getting there...

If the Saints put the SS in coverage to help prevent the deep play, it opens the opponents running game. If the Saints put the SS in the box, it opens up the deep pass. Since neither the secondary, nor the run defense is very good without the SS this is a difficult problem. The Saints need a way to make teams do one or the other, not both, hence the term "one dimensional".

The obvious choice to make a team one dimensional would be the pass. If there is no threat of a run, you can put in a number of coverage packages and tee off, without putting your SS in the box at all. The pass also has a general tendancy to stop the clock. Having the extra DBs also makes the deep score less likely, which has been a problem all year.

So, how can you even make a team one dimensional?
The best answer is good defense. Remember, the Saints need the SS in the box to stop the run. If the secondary could stop the big play with 3 backs, the Saints defense could pull it off unaided. They can't, and sometimes they can't with 4.

That leaves the offense. If you can score quickly and put up a 14 point lead, most opposing teams will start running less if not abandon it. It also forces defenses to make decisions as to defend the pass or run, and nine times out of ten they will play run. They know at that point it's a ball control game for the Saints. This is when you will finally see more carries from the Saints running backs, but don't expect fantasy stats. Games that the Saints have had a two TD lead seem to reflect this too, even though the actual yardage may be abysmal. If the Saints could score as quick with the run, they would. That's just not the case.
Drew Brees said:
I think we'd all like to be more balanced and be in positions where we're up by two touchdowns and hammering it with Deuce (McAllister) and Reggie (Bush) and not having to throw it because you're having to catch up.

Thanks for the time to read this.
 
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mvtrucking

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I would be ecstatic if the Saints could go up by 14 or so and go to a rush heavy attack
 

birdog

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The Saints defense's inability to stop the big play seems to be a factor in the offensive playcalling.
Why? The answer is not simple.
The following information excludes Thanksgiving games.

1. The defense overall is doing a great job of getting opponents off the field.
They are 8th in the league in fewest 1st downs allowed and time of posession. They are 4th in the league in offensive plays allowed. There is even a decent number of sacks so far with 26, which is 11th league wide. "That painlinkfence guy is crazy! If anything, these numbers show the offense can rely on the defense.", some of you are already saying. If that were all there is, then that quote would be right.

2. The secondary is giving up big plays on a consistent basis. In fact, they are the worst in the league at it. They are last in completions of 40 yards or over. They are also last in allowing TD receptions. This has been happening to the Saints defense since their first play of the year. This also means that teams haven't needed time to score, and that's an important piece to the puzzle.

3. The run defense still needs help by putting 8 in the box. This leaves one FS and 2 corners in the Saints standard package. On obvious passing downs, the Saints drop into their pass coverage mode- deep cover 2 zones, nickle and dime options, .etc. The point is there would be more than 3 in the deep secondary playing pass first.

Ok, so we know teams are scoring quickly, and the run defense frequently pulls our SS out of coverage. What does this have to do with offense? Getting there...

If the Saints put the SS in coverage to help prevent the deep play, it opens the opponents running game. If the Saints put the SS in the box, it opens up the deep pass. Since neither the secondary, nor the run defense is very good without the SS this is a difficult problem. The Saints need a way to make teams do one or the other, not both, hence the term "one dimensional".

The obvious choice to make a team one dimensional would be the pass. If there is no threat of a run, you can put in a number of coverage packages and tee off, without putting your SS in the box at all. The pass also has a general tendancy to stop the clock. Having the extra DBs also makes the deep score less likely, which has been a problem all year.

So, how can you even make a team one dimensional?
The best answer is good defense. Remember, the Saints need the SS in the box to stop the run. If the secondary could stop the big play with 3 backs, the Saints defense could pull it off unaided. They can't, and sometimes they can't with 4.

That leaves the offense. If you can score quickly and put up a 14 point lead, most opposing teams will start running less if not abandon it. It also forces defenses to make decisions as to defend the pass or run, and nine times out of ten they will play run. They know at that point it's a ball control game for the Saints. This is when you will finally see more carries from the Saints running backs, but don't expect fantasy stats. Games that the Saints have had a two TD lead seem to reflect this too, even though the actual yardage may be abysmal. If the Saints could score as quick with the run, they would. That's just not the case.



Thanks for the time to read this.
Here's the problem the way I see it....believe it or not, but our D plays some kind of nickel or dime packages over 50% of the time......and by that definition our BASE D is either a nickel, or dime D!......OF COURSE THAT is the determining factor in creating OFFENSIVE OPORTUNITIES for our opponents.....today, you rarely see a base offense with either 1 TE and 2 WRs....as a standard package.....most of the time is either 3 WRs, or a 2 TE set is shown as a basic offensive formation..... so defenses have to adjust to that formation, hence the extra DB in most cases! That opens up the running game on the offensive side of the ball, when facing a 5 DB set....it is easier to run against a 2LB, and a 5 DB set than a 3LB and 4 DB set as a standard package! Our opponents are CREATING MISSMATCHES with different offensive formations, which CONFUSES THE HECK OUT OF OUR DBs! Just a reminder....both of Chad J's TDs were the result OF BUSTED COVERAGES!

So....knowing all this, how should the Saints defend against these mismatches?....the simple answer is... THEY CAN'T SCHEME AROUND IT, without opening up other areas of the D!.....so they are stuck with the players they have in those positions, especially when more and more offenses are using the "no huddle" O!.....and here lies the problem.....neither F Thomas, nor MMK is good enough to "hang" with the better receivers when the O is in passing situations.....and our opponents just won't run the ball when we have all our LBs in the game.....most of the time they throw, but when we have a nickel package they run and that in itself creates all kind of problems......our D is having all kind of problems when trying to defend the run with 2 LBs in the nickel.....

I don't expect our D to magically play better.......that to happen, we need better players on D! we need 2 CBs, 1 FS, and at least 2 LBs, and I'm talking the back 7 only!....Up front, another DT would be a great addition too!.....that means 6 new faces on D for next season!

The good news is, we're set on O.....other than a TE, we should be OK on offense!
 
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The Saints defense's inability to stop the big play seems to be a factor in the offensive playcalling.
Why? The answer is not simple.
The following information excludes Thanksgiving games.

1. The defense overall is doing a great job of getting opponents off the field.
They are 8th in the league in fewest 1st downs allowed and time of posession. They are 4th in the league in offensive plays allowed. There is even a decent number of sacks so far with 26, which is 11th league wide. "That painlinkfence guy is crazy! If anything, these numbers show the offense can rely on the defense.", some of you are already saying. If that were all there is, then that quote would be right.

2. The secondary is giving up big plays on a consistent basis. In fact, they are the worst in the league at it. They are last in completions of 40 yards or over. They are also last in allowing TD receptions. This has been happening to the Saints defense since their first play of the year. This also means that teams haven't needed time to score, and that's an important piece to the puzzle.

3. The run defense still needs help by putting 8 in the box. This leaves one FS and 2 corners in the Saints standard package. On obvious passing downs, the Saints drop into their pass coverage mode- deep cover 2 zones, nickle and dime options, .etc. The point is there would be more than 3 in the deep secondary playing pass first.

Ok, so we know teams are scoring quickly, and the run defense frequently pulls our SS out of coverage. What does this have to do with offense? Getting there...

If the Saints put the SS in coverage to help prevent the deep play, it opens the opponents running game. If the Saints put the SS in the box, it opens up the deep pass. Since neither the secondary, nor the run defense is very good without the SS this is a difficult problem. The Saints need a way to make teams do one or the other, not both, hence the term "one dimensional".

The obvious choice to make a team one dimensional would be the pass. If there is no threat of a run, you can put in a number of coverage packages and tee off, without putting your SS in the box at all. The pass also has a general tendancy to stop the clock. Having the extra DBs also makes the deep score less likely, which has been a problem all year.

So, how can you even make a team one dimensional?
The best answer is good defense. Remember, the Saints need the SS in the box to stop the run. If the secondary could stop the big play with 3 backs, the Saints defense could pull it off unaided. They can't, and sometimes they can't with 4.

That leaves the offense. If you can score quickly and put up a 14 point lead, most opposing teams will start running less if not abandon it. It also forces defenses to make decisions as to defend the pass or run, and nine times out of ten they will play run. They know at that point it's a ball control game for the Saints. This is when you will finally see more carries from the Saints running backs, but don't expect fantasy stats. Games that the Saints have had a two TD lead seem to reflect this too, even though the actual yardage may be abysmal. If the Saints could score as quick with the run, they would. That's just not the case.



Thanks for the time to read this.
Thats a very well thought out assesment, and I compliment you on that. IMO its alot simpler. Payton loves the creativity and big play potential of the pass. In 2000 Fassel demoted him, Parcells has said that he gets the virus (pass happy) and now he has alot of new toys and no restraint.
 

Danchrism

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The secondary is giving up big plays on a consistent basis. In fact, they are the worst in the league at it.
Which.

Is.

Why.

We.

Need.

To.

Keep.

Them.

Off.

The.

Field.

For.

As.

Long.

As.

Humanly.

Possible!

How do we accomplish this goal?

a) Mix up the playcalling, drain some clock, consistently take what's given (even if it's a 2 yard scramble), score points, and see what the world looks like.

b) Zoom up the field as quickly as we can, playing high risk/high reward-style offense.


I think we'd all like to be more balanced and be in positions where we're up by two touchdowns and hammering it with Deuce (McAllister) and Reggie (Bush) and not having to throw it because you're having to catch up.
So what, are we just going to never run until we pad a lead, then degenerate into Martyball...? That's two times the predictability that we DON'T need, and that I'd hope an offensive-minded coach would quickly snuff out as a possibility.
 
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Which.

Is. Why. We. Need. To. Keep. Them. Off. The. Field. For. As. Long. As. Humanly. Possible!

How do we accomplish this goal?

a) Mix up the playcalling, drain some clock, consistently take what's given (even if it's a 2 yard scramble), score points, and see what the world looks like.

b) Zoom up the field as quickly as we can, playing high risk/high reward-style offense.




So what, are we just going to never run until we pad a lead, then degenerate into Martyball...? That's two times the predictability that we DON'T need, and that I'd hope an offensive-minded coach would quickly snuff out as a possibility.
That doesn't matter when an opposing O can score without using time off the clock. Points do matter, and those points need to be in a hurry. Long sustained drives are actually not a benefit if the opposing team can score in three plays.
Amazing, this still applies in week 2 of 2007.
Take a look at the number of big plays by the offense last year, and look at the production without that benefit.
One more note, the Saints defense at the time of this post (November 2006) were the best in the league at 3 and outs. They already were getting them off the field.
 
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Thats a very well thought out assesment, and I compliment you on that. IMO its alot simpler. Payton loves the creativity and big play potential of the pass. In 2000 Fassel demoted him, Parcells has said that he gets the virus (pass happy) and now he has alot of new toys and no restraint.
Parcells has since said "Fix the secondary, and in a hurry".
In 2000, the Giants made the SB- he wasn't "demoted" until 2002.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa.../Reference/Times Topics/People/P/Payton, Sean
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa.../Reference/Times Topics/People/P/Payton, Sean

Yes, this thread is a year old. Why is it still relevant??
Fix the secondary, Gibbs.
 

bradman1965

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Fix the secondary, Gibbs.
I don't think it's Gibbs' job to fix. We have personnel issues and it doesn't look like we're going to be able to use smoke and mirrors to replace it. It was noted above that we are in nickel and dime over 50% of the time. This is turning into our base defense and we don't have any more bodies to cover up our deficiencies. Benching David doesn't work when you only have 5 active db's and they are all on the field a good amount of the time. It's time to get some new and better players.

Sad thing is we are trying. David was well down on the list of FA acquisitions. Plan C or so. and we drafted two CB's. You can argue that David Jones had more upside, but that's a hard call to make in the preseason. Either way. Needs to be addressed.
 
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