Defense will still be bad if we don't get a DT (1 Viewer)

[rlemieux]

I am really interested to see what Orien Harris has in him. Really liked him coming out of Miami and think he just got picked up by the wrong teams with the wrong schemes (Pittsburgh and Cleveland who both run the 3-4). Thought coming out he was a 3-tech in the 4-3. He was a former 4th round and over his last two seasons at Miami he had 95 tackles, 20 tackles for loss 33 QB hurries and 5 sacks.

I really think he might be a great find at DT for the Saints.

 

[BigHossTheBoss]

Pass rushing DT is not the problem. We need a run stuffing DT (who is a little more athletic than Hollis) so that we can 1. free Vilma up to make plays and 2. stop having to overplay the run so much with our safeties. We have been good against the run because we play everyone up to stop the run (which is the reason we get torched deep all the time). We need a space eater. This is why I don't think Dorsey and Ellis make as much sense as people think. I think Dre Moore would be a lot better in round 2. Besides, other than Le'Roi Glover and Sapp, what DT has really made a HUGE difference as a pass rusher in the last 10 years? I am sure there have been guys who have had a year or two with 10 sacks a piece, but it just doesn't happen on a consistent basis.

 

[Torgo]

Pass rushing DT is not the problem.

Are you serious? This defense had almost no inside pressure last year. Clancy and Thomas are both space eating nose tackles. I'm not saying we couldn't use another big nose tackle in the rotation, but if you don't think that our lack of good pass-rushing DT isn't a problem....then I just don't know what to say.

 

[9thwardsaint]

the original poster has a good point. I believe a guy like ellis would have a tremendous impact on this team. This guy is warren sapp quick. You cant teach that.Hollis Thomas consistently command double teams which would leave a guy like Ellis to go to work. It would be a dream to get him without moving anywhere.....all i can think of is Laroi Glover and Norman Hand. If we could apply any kind of pressure at the tackle position like we did when we had those two we would have to be considered a contender to win it all.

 

[Lipstead Hock]

Guys we have 6 good DT's.
Young is not given his due here. But he is a force consistently averaging around 50 tackles a year for us. That's great for a DT. And he's far from oft-injured. Last year was the first time he's missed any significant time since he's been a Saint. And he's only 30. Not too old.
Hollis Thomas is a force too. He's been around the 50 tackle mark both seasons with the Saints.
Kendrick Clancy is excellent depth as well as Lake and Boykin. And like rlemieux pointed out Orien Harris could be a steal and work out really well for us.

Obviously we need youth at this position. but our DT rotation is not the issue on our defense.

 

[SebaSaint]

Guys we have 6 good DT's.
Young is not given his due here. But he is a force consistently averaging around 50 tackles a year for us. That's great for a DT. And he's far from oft-injured. Last year was the first time he's missed any significant time since he's been a Saint. And he's only 30. Not too old.
Hollis Thomas is a force too. He's been around the 50 tackle mark both seasons with the Saints.
Kendrick Clancy is excellent depth as well as Lake and Boykin. And like rlemieux pointed out Orien Harris could be a steal and work out really well for us.

Obviously we need youth at this position. but our DT rotation is not the issue on our defense.

So what exactly happened on third downs last year? Grant and Smith just sucked it up worse than they've played in years past? We got no pressure and how many freaking 3rd and 15s, 3rd and 24s were converted last year... D-Line needs upgrading and I think the issue has less to do with Grant and Smith than with the interior line.

 

[St. Kevin]

So what exactly happened on third downs last year? Grant and Smith just sucked it up worse than they've played in years past? We got no pressure and how many freaking 3rd and 15s, 3rd and 24s were converted last year... D-Line needs upgrading and I think the issue has less to do with Grant and Smith than with the interior line.

Amen.

 

[Lipstead Hock]

So what exactly happened on third downs last year? Grant and Smith just sucked it up worse than they've played in years past? We got no pressure and how many freaking 3rd and 15s, 3rd and 24s were converted last year... D-Line needs upgrading and I think the issue has less to do with Grant and Smith than with the interior line.

I feel like with a third DE we've addressed that problem. I don't believe our DT's had much to do with our inept pass rush. Heck Hollis had more sacks than Grant in 07. It has more to do with that Will Smith and Charles Grant had off years. Bet that doesn't happen again this year even without a new DT. Smith had 10.5 sacks the year before with the same DT's. And Grant had 6. McCray will help the sack numbers more than anything else. And a motivated Smith and Grant.

 

[CitySaint]

I agree the D-line needs upgrading just not to the extent the back 7 needs to be upgraded. We didn't have pressure because our ends were horrible last year. Pass rush and pressure is suppose to come mainly from them not 3-techs and nose tackles. Our ends have to do better in that department.

 

[SebaSaint]

I agree the D-line needs upgrading just not to the extent the back 7 needs to be upgraded. We didn't have pressure because our ends were horrible last year. Pass rush and pressure is suppose to come mainly from them not 3-techs and nose tackles. Our ends have to do better in that department.

It's called "collapsing the pocket" and this method is useful in forcing QBs into the open arms of Grant and Smith... we had 0 of this last year particularly on third downs when you need it most... Well defined pockets were common last year and were the Bane of Jason David's existence.

 

[kt saint]

It's called "collapsing the pocket" and this method is useful in forcing QBs into the open arms of Grant and Smith... we had 0 of this last year particularly on third downs when you need it most... Well defined pockets were common last year and were the Bane of Jason David's existence.

I agree with you. the pocket needs to be collapsed to have a good pass rush. It seemed like our ends were standing around trying to stop a scramble and bat down passes instead of going after the QB.
Coach O has said he likes to cut his men loose. I think it will help our sack situation greatly. It does concern me that they ma tire out faster so a young DT would help that much more.

 

[Saints382]

I am really interested to see what Orien Harris has in him. Really liked him coming out of Miami and think he just got picked up by the wrong teams with the wrong schemes (Pittsburgh and Cleveland who both run the 3-4). Thought coming out he was a 3-tech in the 4-3. He was a former 4th round and over his last two seasons at Miami he had 95 tackles, 20 tackles for loss 33 QB hurries and 5 sacks.

I really think he might be a great find at DT for the Saints.

Yeah, I really want to see what Harris can do...has potential, so we have to watch out for him in this upcoming TC. Also, let's not forget McKinley Boykin who got PT last season and was in on tackles, and had a good TC/NFL Europa as well.

But we still can't rely on them 2. If Dorsey or Ellis is at #10, you take them.

 

[Cajun Chat]

Get a CB, DT and LB in the first 3 rounds. It doesn't matter who goes when.

I have a feeling we might go Fred Davis in the 2nd round, TE from USC. I would stick with defense in the first 3 rounds though.

 

[gtaz21]

I feel like with a third DE we've addressed that problem. I don't believe our DT's had much to do with our inept pass rush. Heck Hollis had more sacks than Grant in 07. It has more to do with that Will Smith and Charles Grant had off years. Bet that doesn't happen again this year even without a new DT. Smith had 10.5 sacks the year before with the same DT's. And Grant had 6. McCray will help the sack numbers more than anything else. And a motivated Smith and Grant.

You're on the right track here. The OP is mistaken. I have several points to make here in response to the OP's statement.

1) I don't think that we need a top-tier defense to get to the Super Bowl. Remember, when we get back to running the football with Deuce or PT, we'll have the #1 offense in the NFL again. Heck, what'd we end up last year, 4 or 5, without a real tailback? If we just get an average defense, we should be able to get to the Super Bowl.

2) Consistent pressure up the middle is something that very few defenses have. It is not a MUST to have an average defense. It is not even a must to have a great defense. There are several philosophies on defense and no one formula guarantees a great defense. Look at our defense from last year. Defensive pressure up the middle was NOT our big weakness. In fact, stopping the run up the middle wasn't our biggest weakness either. Our biggest weakness was giving up too many deep balls and WAY too many 3rd-and-long's converted into 1st downs. That's a reflection on CB and linebacker NOT DT.

3) I also think that our DE's mailed in most of the season last year. I posted about this several times last year. Both Smith and Grant had subpar years, and you can't blame that on the DT's. Why do you think FO made a play for McCray??? Easy answer. To kick Smith and Grant in the butt and make sure we have someone who can get to the passer on 3rd and long to get us the heck off the field.

4) You can cover up for weak secondary by having a killer front seven. GET RIVERS! Dorsey or Ellis will not fall to us, but Rivers should be there. Adding Rivers to Vilma and Fujita gives us a fantastic linebacking crew. When you add McCray on passing situations, our front seven now becomes a threat to an offense, especially a qb. The addition of Rivers, McCray and Vilma shoud make our defense good enough to get back to the playoffs and to the Super Bowl if our offense returns to its 2006 form.

5) Moving Grant inside! The biggest advantage of adding McCray is that we can mimic the Giants defense on 2nd and long and 3rd and long by bringing McCray in at DE and moving Grant to DT. Grant's big enough to stuff the run if that's what the offense choosed in a passing situation, but he's also quick enough to get by a guard and pressure the qb. Also, if you bring Rivers up to the line as well or blitz him through a gap, he can get to the qb FAST! I can see mucho pressure in passing situations with this lineup.

6) Secondary has already improved - Even now our secondary is better than it was last year. We added Gay, who is better than David and Craft. I hear from my sources that the organization has learned its lesson and Kaesviharn will start this year. We all know that the secondary played its best when KK was in at FS. Now, the organization sees that as well. Better late than never, I guess. Assuming that Usama Young can come along and maybe that we take a good young corner in the second round to be the dime corner, we should be better all-around in the secondary.

All these things considered, we do NOT need to upgrade at DT, especially not by trading up to take Dorsey or Ellis. Rivers will have a higher impact on this team for less cost. I have always believed that linebackers can have a higher impact than DT anyway. They are in the middle of the field and have the ability to make plays short, medium or deep. They play the run and the pass. They can blitz. They can spy a running qb. They can pick up a receiving RB out of the backfield, etc.

In closing, let's stay where we are, GET RIVERS and retain our high 2nd and 3rd to pick up two more impact players, maybe CB and WR.

 

[cruize]

If Cromartie is there, you take him. Then, you try to trade back up and get Laws.