Ecstasy = 6-Inches and Prominent Reason for Continual D Failure (1 Viewer)

I can't even figure out what you're talking about.

What is Payton's style? Your rambling OP is more of the same attention whoring you're so well known for on this site.

Nice style Brother :covri: I hope this makes you feel like a man.
 
If Payton is guilty of anything, it's not allowing Defensive Coordinators bring in their own assistant coaches. I personally feel like Payton's emphasis on creating turnovers is what leads to sloppy tackling and risky breaks on the ball by defensive backs. We see good tackling in the first half, then at half they come out trying to strip the ball and trying to jump routes rather than just wrapping up and making the tackle.

I have a common denominator theory about things in general. If a problem persists no matter the staff or players, the people who have been there throughout the entire period are likely to blame.

Offensively, obviously Payton has been a master. The question moving forward will be, how much of that was excellent scheme and how much of it was just elite QB play?
 

It's arguable. An incomplete short pass results in a loss of downs and a stopped clock. Anytime the clock is stopped the game is made longer. A run will ALWAYS leave the clock running.

So yes the short passing game via incompletions can make the game longer thus increasing snaps across the board
 
It's arguable. An incomplete short pass results in a loss of downs and a stopped clock. Anytime the clock is stopped the game is made longer. A run will ALWAYS leave the clock running.

So yes the short passing game via incompletions can make the game longer thus increasing snaps across the board

It's not arguable, and I just made a very detailed post from foobtall outsiders that apparently got deleted in the merging of these threads.

Crosswatt, can you get it back?
 
It's not arguable, and I just made a very detailed post from foobtall outsiders that apparently got deleted in the merging of these threads.

Crosswatt, can you get it back?

I don't see it anywhere, but I'll keep looking. Sorry about that.
 
There's a huge big pink elephant in the living room and nobody wants to even acknowledge that the elephant is real.


Definition of pink elephants

: hallucinations arising especially from heavy drinking or use of narcotics <began to see pink elephants>

"Pink Elephants." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 13 Sept. 2016.
 
Im ok with the kicker, he was in a tough spot, the old guy wouldn't have even attempted it
 
It's not arguable, and I just made a very detailed post from foobtall outsiders that apparently got deleted in the merging of these threads.

Crosswatt, can you get it back?

I'll wait to see the post but logic tells me a run stuffed for no gain keeps the clock running so it automatically shortens the game vs an incomplete pass in the same situation. If it's 3rd and 3 and you run the ball and fail to make it you can still take 30seconds off the clock b4 punting. So u can go from 10:30 to 10:00 b4 the Punr. With an incomplete pass the punt is made right at the stoppage.

via 1 in completed pass u kept 30 seconds on the clock. A team can drive 40yards for a win with 30seconds on the clock. A whole series can be completed in 30seconds based on play calls. That's 3 extra plays for a D.

It likely balances out during the course of a game but assuming it has zero affect would be fallacy. Logic says running teams keep their D on the field less by taking more time off the clock.

Ray Lewis complained a about it all the time.


I digress tho.. Well agree to disagree
 
I made this same post in 2014 against these same allegations. Guess I have to make it again in regards to the idea that our defense plays too many snaps or we score too fast.

First, let's look at how the defense does on their own. This is important because you can have the best running offense in the league, but if your defense is giving up long drives, then they are the reason they are on the field for more snaps.

Total drives defended = 176 (9th fewest in the league)
Yards allowed per drive = 38 (32nd)
Points allowed per drive = 2.64 (32nd)
Punts forced per drive = .347 (31st)
Redzone TD defense = .677 (32nd)

So, as you can see, the defense is terrible in all stats that are contained within their control. The fact that they only defended 176 drives shows they haven't been placed on the field too much. They allow the longest drives and most points per drive defended, which adds greatly to them being on the field. But, that again, is their fault.

Now, let's look at some offensive stats and field position stats to see if there's something we are missing:

Average LOS/per drive defensively = 26.75 (11th best in the league, in other words, the offense does not give the defense short fields to defend often)
TOP per offensive drive = 2.52 (8th best in the league)
Plays per offensive drive = 6.40 (3rd best, 1st downs run clock)
Total offensive drives = 174 (4th lowest, likely because the defense never gets turnovers)
Average lead the defense plays with per drive = 1.83 points (12th best, this can go into the negative for other teams obviously. This shows we gave the defense a lead more often then not).

So putting all this together, the defense is routinely asked to defend a below average number of drives, from above average starting field position, with an offense that stays on the field well above average, and is usually given a lead to defend. Yet, they give up the longest drives and most points of any defense. Meanwhile, they give our offense a near league low number of drives because they 1) don't get off the field and 2) don't get turnovers.

In conclusion, any issues with the defense being on the field too long are almost entirely their own fault because they can't get off the field. Even then, the numbers show that they aren't on the field too long and in most cases they are on the field near a league low compared to other defenses.
 
I'll wait to see the post but logic tells me a run stuffed for no gain keeps the clock running so it automatically shortens the game vs an incomplete pass in the same situation. If it's 3rd and 3 and you run the ball and fail to make it you can still take 30seconds off the clock b4 punting. So u can go from 10:30 to 10:00 b4 the Punr. With an incomplete pass the punt is made right at the stoppage.

via 1 in completed pass u kept 30 seconds on the clock. A team can drive 40yards for a win with 30seconds on the clock. A whole series can be completed in 30seconds based on play calls. That's 3 extra plays for a D.

It likely balances out during the course of a game but assuming it has zero affect would be fallacy. Logic says running teams keep their D on the field less by taking more time off the clock.

Ray Lewis complained a about it all the time.


I digress tho.. Well agree to disagree

You are stretching too hard to try to make your point. A run stuff for no gain keeps the clock running. So what? It also can lead to a 3 and out. What matters is 1) how long does the offense actually stay on the field in reality 2) how many average plays do they run per drive and 3) can the defense get off the field on their own? You can have the greatest run offense in the world, but if your defense is giving up nearly 40 yards per drive, they are going to play more snaps.

There is no argument that the offense keeps our defense on the field too long. Not unless you want to be so pedantic that you insist the offense no only has to score 35+ a game but that they must also keep the defense at a league low in snaps (they are already bottom 1/3rd in snaps). The problem is, that's not possible since the defense gives up the longest drives and most points per drive. TOP is a two way street.
 
SP legally signed over control of the defense to Williams. We win a SB and 1-play away from likely winning another.

Which "1 play" are you talking about?

If Vernon Davis doesn't catch that TD pass and the Saints manage to hold them out of the end zone......SF still has a chance to tie the game with a short FG and send it to overtime. So IF the Saints somehow pull it off in OT, then they still have to win 2 more games to get another championship.

Sounds like alot more than "1 play" to me ? :idunno:
 
I made this same post in 2014 against these same allegations. Guess I have to make it again in regards to the idea that our defense plays too many snaps or we score too fast.

First, let's look at how the defense does on their own. This is important because you can have the best running offense in the league, but if your defense is giving up long drives, then they are the reason they are on the field.

Total drives defended = 176 (9th fewest in the league)
Yards allowed per drive = 38 (32nd)
Points allowed per drive = 2.64 (32nd)
Punts forced per drive = .347 (31st)
Redzone TD defense = .677 (32nd)

So, as you can see, the defense is terrible in all stats that are contained within their control. The fact that they only defended 176 drives shows they haven't been placed on the field too much. They allow the longest drives and most points per drive defended, which adds greatly to them being on the field. But, that again, is their fault.

Now, let's look at some offensive stats and field position stats to see if there's something we are missing:

Average LOS/per drive defensively = 26.75 (11th best in the league)
TOP per offensive drive = 2.52 (9th best in the league)
Plays per offensive drive = 6.40 (3rd best, which kills the idea that running more would mean longer drives)
Total offensive drives = 174 (4th lowest, likely because the defense never gets turnovers)
Average lead the defense plays with per drive = 1.83 points (12th best, this can go into the negative for other teams obviously. This shows we had the defense a lead more often then not).

So putting all this together, the defense is routinely asked to defend a below average number of drives, from above average starting field position, with an offense that stays on the field well above average, and is usually given a lead to defend. Yet, they give up the longest drives and most points of any defense. Meanwhile, they give our offense a near league low number of drives because they 1) don't get off the field and 2) don't get turnovers.

In conclusion, any issues with the defense being on the field too long are almost entirely their own fault because they can't get off the field. Even then, the numbers show that they aren't on the field too long and in most cases they are on the field near a league low compared to other defenses.


This all makes sense...and answers 1 question. It's not the offenses fault.

What it doesn't explain is why other than anomaly years the Saints defense is guaranteed to be trash.

So I did more research which supports your analysis 100%

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot?date=2007-02-05

2006 - 3rd
2007 - 7th
2008 - 15th
2009 - 11th
2010 - 5th
2011 - 3rd
2012 - 25th
2013 - 1st
2014 - 19th
2015 - 7th
2016 - 18th (so far)

I will not/cannot/ don't have enough information to correlate these #'s to an ability or inability to run the ball.



What I can correlate is during the winning seasons we had some semblance of a secondary and a passrush and a running game to complement what is a passfirst offense.

Primarily we had elite to really good secondaries in the best defensive years. 2009-2011 and then 2013. Your DB's/Secondary during this time consisted of Jabari Greer, Keenan Lewis, Patrick Robinson, Malcolm Jenkins, Corey White, Roman Harper, Kenny Vaccaro, Randall Gay, and Tracy Porter.

Since the end of the 2014 season your DB's have consisted of Corey White, Pat Robinson, Champ Bailey, Brandon Browner, Jairus Byrd, Kenny Vaccaro, Ken Crawley, Devante Harris, Keenan Lewis, Vonn Bell, Erik Harris, Roman Harper.


Only in the 2013 season were the DB's and the Passrush strong and it resulted in the #4 ranked D.

2012 had the secondary still in tact from 2011 but the scheme was trash.


This leads me to believe that the primary reason for success or failure of SP defense in any given season relies on the strength of the defensive back field or the coaches that draw up the schemes for them.


There is still hope this year and I know this because Byrd, Vaccaro, Breaux, PJ Williams, Devante Harris, and Von Bell are no way in comparison to what Greer,Sharper,Gay,Jenkins,Harper,Porter, Robinson were between 2009-2013 but until the injury to Breaux were playing good football. So DA's coaching can make a difference.


With that being said it would be wise next year if we spent a high draft pick on 1 of the 3 positions at RB, CB, DE. Any of those would help the defense directly or indirectly.

Due to the style of D we are playing under Allen (more zone vs man) the draft pick would be of best service at DE but a competent DB wouldn't hurt either. Its just that there would still likey be chances of Zones being exploited when you have 6 seconds to pass the ball. No zone coverage can hold up realistically for that long.


Despite the addage "stick to offense" its kind of hard to be much better than we've been offensively over the last 10 years. Maybe a back like David Johnson would have helped a bit more but the luxuries on offense have been aplenty to keep it as a top 10-12 offense for a decade. Improving the D and keeping it stacked with talent in the secondary and dline is the only way it will flourish and be a complementary piece to our O.

When we miss on those picks and FA signings.......is when our Team looks terrible. Champ Bailey, Brandon Browner, Jason David, Jairus Byrd, Stanley Jean Baptiste, Johnny Patrick, and even Pat Robinson to a degree. When those guys didn't turn out to be who we thought they'd be it hurt our Defense every year we were counting on them to take part in some kind of role.


When we've made our hits Jabari Greer, Malcolm Jenkins, Kenny Vaccaro, Randall Gay, Keenan Lewis, Roman Harper the D has looked as it was supposed to do. Obviously this is with any team but for a SP team the defense has been most effective when its had strong DB's, Strong DB coaching, or both.


One can argue that SP should focus on DB/DE at all times every draft and pull the trigger on at least 1. When I look back at certain things it makes me feel as though if we had a clear concise vision for our D and stuck to it it would lead to better decisions. Take 2015 for instance. We took Peat and Anthony. 1 Year later and they aren't really the prime players we expected. 1 could argue that taking Marcus Peters at 13 and then Donovan Smith at 31 would have been a wise moves. Hindsight is 20/20 but if you stick to past years and our MO of not really taking olineman early(Which everyone complained about) and nabbing DB's or skill position players with top picks we'd likely look much better this year.

Its all moot and off subject but...man figuring out how best to construct this team so the D and O compliment each other has been a task for SP and his batting average is no better than 50%
 

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