Elephants almost in the Civil War (1 Viewer)

[Eeyore]

I would like an elephant.

 

[BIG KITCH]

Cersi would not have turned him down.

 

[Saint_Ward]

OK, no where near this big, but....

 

[superchuck500]

In the letter, Mongkut offers the elephants as beasts of burden, and not for the war effort. Given how long would've taken a letter from Siam (Thailand) to reach the U.S. in 1861 and vice versa, it is highly unlikely that Mongkut would've known of the civil war in the U.S. and that he wrote the letter prior to the civil war erupting.

I bet those guys carrying the letter walked for miles. Their feet were hurtin’.

 

[SystemShock]

I bet those guys carrying the letter walked for miles. Their feet were hurtin’.

Legend has it, Moctezuma had special envoys (painanis) bring him fresh fish (not salted or prepared in any way) some 400 kilometers (about 250 miles) from the coast of Veracruz to the city of Tenochtitlán.

Today, The Fish of Moctezuma, billed as "The Oldest Relay Race in History", is an annual event in which participants run a relay race from the coast of Veracruz to Mexico City. They don't carry fish, though.

 

[Saintman2884]

1861 was the year it was invented.

It was invented around that time, but it wasn't widely used or implemented on a large-scale military tactical or strategic situations effectively until around late 19th-century/early 20th century battlefields like Second Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902 where the British had to resort to forcibly removing hundreds of thousands of white Afrikaner/black South Africans into barbed-wire, poorly maintained concentration camps to deprive Boer guerrillas food, shelter, resources, provisions, and hideouts from British army patrols in the vast South African velt, or hinterlands. Hundreds of thousands of white and black South Africans died in British-built concentration camps due to neglect, malnutrition, diseases like typhus, diphtheria, malaria/yellow fever, and starvation.


Strangely enough, as an historian, when I think of war elephants, the one ancient military general, tactical genius that comes to mind is Hannibal Barca of the Second Punic Wars who marched his immense Caethaginian forces with Gaul auxiliaries from Spain through modern-day southern France over the Cisalpine Alps of southern Swizerland, northern Italy where he annihilated several major Roman armies sent to face him. Hannibal was far from being the first ancient military general or conqueror to use war elephants as a tactical instrument during combat but he may have been the very first to use it effectively consistently during major battles. Go and read Plutarch's history of the Punic Wars and he essentially says during the first major couple battles between Hannibal's armies and the Roman legions, most of the Roman legionaries were scared sheetless of seeing these huge animals charging at them in open combat.

 

[Saintman2884]

Legend has it, Moctezuma had special envoys (painanis) bring him fresh fish (not salted or prepared in any way) some 400 kilometers (about 250 miles) from the coast of Veracruz to the city of Tenochtitlán.

Today, The Fish of Moctezuma, billed as "The Oldest Relay Race in History", is an annual event in which participants run a relay race from the coast of Veracruz to Mexico City. They don't carry fish, though.

Are you aware that Moctezuma had essentially just taken power as Aztec emperor when he first encountered European Spanish conquistadors? Some Mesoamerican historians, ethno-culturalists, or anthropologists have used this as one reason for his inexperience or being outmaneuvered or his men or people having no natural defense against European diseases or having modern weaponry such as guns, cannons, or crossbows?

 

[SystemShock]

Are you aware that Moctezuma had essentially just taken power as Aztec emperor when he first encountered European Spanish conquistadors? Some Mesoamerican historians, ethno-culturalists, or anthropologists have used this as one reason for his inexperience or being outmaneuvered or his men or people having no natural defense against European diseases or having modern weaponry such as guns, cannons, or crossbows?

Um... ok.

Edit: no, not ok.

Moctezuma became the ruler of Tenochtitlán in 1502, and did not meet Hernán Cortés until 1519, some 17 years later. 17 years between events is hardly "just taken power". In the 17 years before meeting Cortés, he dedicated himself to conquering neighboring cities and expanding Tenochtitán's influence in what it is now central México.

What did Moctezuma in wasn't inexperience, but superstition and the way he treated the cities he conquered. He thought Cortés was related to Quetzalcóatl, based on a prophesy, and treated him as such. And when the fighting started, not only did no one wanted to help Tenochtitlán fight off the Spaniards, some had become allies of them, more prominently the Tlaxcaltecas.

As for not having natural defenses against European diseases, how could they? They have never seen them or experienced them before.

As for not having modern weaponry such as guns or cannons, that was just a function of Geography: the Mongols didn't try to conquer what is now América, nor the Silk Road reached it.

The Aztecs may not have had crossbows, but they had atlatls, which allowed them to throw spears further than arrows, and tematlatls (sling shots), which by accounts of the Spaniards, would severely hurt men even if wearing armor.

 

[Dago]

cannons don't either really, though
and wouldn't you try to use the elephants to flank the artillery positions?
not that i know much about military strategy

Dont underestimate the shock value as well

If I am sitting there with a musket and 10 elephants appear out the mist running right at me, I am gonna take a couple moments to rethink my beliefs and life choices

 

[Optimus Prime]

Dont underestimate the shock value as well

If I am sitting there with a musket and 10 elephants appear out the mist running right at me, I am gonna take a couple moments to rethink my beliefs and life choices

That shock value would be there today

In early 1860s America had you ever seen an elephant?

Had you even seen a picture of an elephant?

Had you even ever heard of an elephant?

That’s not shock value

That’s pure pants shirting terror

 

[bigdaddysaints]

That shock value would be there today

In 1864 America had you even seen a picture of an an elephant?

Had you even ever heard of an elephant?

That’s not shock value

That’s pure pants shirting terror

 

[GW93]

There's a scene in The King and I about this:

King Mongkut of Siam : Now, shall Mr. Lincoln be winning this war he is fighting at present?

Anna Leonowens : No one knows really.

King Mongkut of Siam : Well, does he have enough guns and elephants for transporting things?

Anna Leonowens : I don't think they have elephants in America, your majesty.

King Mongkut of Siam : No elephants? No wonder he is not winning war!

The king then goes on to dictate a letter to Leonowens to be sent to President Lincoln:

King Mongkut of Siam : ...Pairs of male elephants to be released into the forests of America. There it is hoped that they will grow in number and the people can tame them and use them as beasts of burden.

Anna Leonowens : But your majesty, I don't think you mean pairs of MALE elephants.

 

[Saintman2884]

Um... ok.

Edit: no, not ok.

Moctezuma became the ruler of Tenochtitlán in 1502, and did not meet Hernán Cortés until 1519, some 17 years later. 17 years between events is hardly "just taken power". In the 17 years before meeting Cortés, he dedicated himself to conquering neighboring cities and expanding Tenochtitán's influence in what it is now central México.

What did Moctezuma in wasn't inexperience, but superstition and the way he treated the cities he conquered. He thought Cortés was related to Quetzalcóatl, based on a prophesy, and treated him as such. And when the fighting started, not only did no one wanted to help Tenochtitlán fight off the Spaniards, some had become allies of them, more prominently the Tlaxcaltecas.

As for not having natural defenses against European diseases, how could they? They have never seen them or experienced them before.

As for not having modern weaponry such as guns or cannons, that was just a function of Geography: the Mongols didn't try to conquer what is now América, nor the Silk Road reached it.

The Aztecs may not have had crossbows, but they had atlatls, which allowed them to throw spears further than arrows, and tematlatls (sling shots), which by accounts of the Spaniards, would severely hurt men even if wearing armor.

Some pre-Columbian historians or anthropologists have claimed that the mythical, white-skinned diety, Quetzalcoata was a fable that most Aztecs didnt believe in long before and during Cortes arrival. Some historians or pre-Columbian historians have searched extensively throughout Aztec government or mythological texts and found scant evidence of a long-departed white-skinned Aztec diety who according to ancient texts would return one day. Some have gone as far as to say later Aztec chroniclers invented the whole diety's story and origin to illustrate how Montezuma's superstitious mindset and character was a huge factor in him being overrun by Spanish conquistadors and their Native American allies and how Montezuma became so hated and despised by his people he was stoned to death in a riot outside his palace.

I call into question Montezuma's competency because while he initially invited Cortes conquistadors into his palace at Tenochtitlan, his elite Eagle Warriors bodyguard suspected Cortez forces true motives from very beginning and were literally begging him to allow them to attack and overwhelm them before they augmented and increased their numbers by allying with subjected tribes under Aztec rule. His Eagle Warriors unit saw the potential eventual end game long before Montezuma or perhaps even the Spanish saw it. It was to Montezuma's and by consequence Aztec Empire, fatal ultimate detriment that they failed to act accordingly until it was too late. Aztec Eagle warriors did eventually drive Cortez from the capital briefly, a day labeled by Cortez, "the night of tears" for the amount of men he lost trying to escape the land bridge connecting Tenocchtitlan from vast jungle forests surrounding it.

 

[SystemShock]

Some pre-Columbian historians or anthropologists have claimed that the mythical, white-skinned diety, Quetzalcoata was a fable that most Aztecs didnt believe in long before and during Cortes arrival.

Please, stop.

 

[Optimus Prime]