FA picks ups and draft: I wish we would got to a 3-4 (1 Viewer)

[geauxtigers72]

i didnt mean to only post 3 recievers henderson with moore 5 and maybe a draft pick at 6

 

[Saint Droopy]

we wouldn't get a 3-pack of footies for david... but thanx for trying...

 

[kooldak]

1. I'm with rlemieux on Smith and Grant. They are not prototypical 3-4 DEs and to think that they can be molded into that type of player is not, IMHO, realistic.

2. Our best LB is no good in a 3-4, either. That is why Dallas let him go. Solid Sam, though. Does just fine in a 4-3.

3. Neither scheme is inherently better than the other. Personnel and coaching make either one successful or not. Other than team philosophy, there is no reason to prefer one scheme over the other.

4. We are built to run a 4-3. Our experienced players are experienced in a 4-3. We coach a 4-3. The decision was made some time ago to go 4-3 and nothing has been done to change that thought process.

5. Like others have said, JD has no current trade value.

Bottom line - we HAVE discussed this concept ad nauseum and other than doing a little dreaming (nothing wrong with that), we can be fairly certain that the Saints have no intention whatsoever to switch. As much as I would like to see the reincarnation of the Dome Patrol, I know I won't. I also know that the 4-3 can be very effective when coached properly and played properly. So I'm just looking forward to our off season acquisitions that will allow our current 4-3 to succeed. IMHO, that is realistic.

JMO.

 

[peytonknows]

Did we switch to a 3-4 yet? If not...

 

[Cottonmill_Saint]

At least spell Fujita's name right for crissakes!

 

[basilisk]

1. I'm with rlemieux on Smith and Grant. They are not prototypical 3-4 DEs and to think that they can be molded into that type of player is not, IMHO, realistic.~~

i agree with you about our LBs, but i'm interested in your reasons for this... why do you think they wouldn't be good 34 DEs? surely they aren't too small (even smith, and grant is pushing 300 lbs)?

 

[brophy]

how many 3-4 threads do we need every month? I'm just curious, because I don't get the miracle cure it creates when you substitute a linebacker/safety for a DT.

I like the Lance Briggs addition. Having Briggs and Fujita together would do wonders for this defense. You just need an explosive interior DL player to get pressure / disruption inside.

1st pick? DT!!!! There are a lot of quality tackles that can make a dramatic contribution on EVERY down (not just the 2 or 3 Hollis Thomas can catch his breath to make one).

3rd pick? WOLB.

GET LANCE BRIGGS, though.

 

[kooldak]

i agree with you about our LBs, but i'm interested in your reasons for this... why do you think they wouldn't be good 34 DEs? surely they aren't too small (even smith, and grant is pushing 300 lbs)?

Sure.

Well, size certainly plays a role. We saw this year that the additional weight being carried by Grant and Smith negatively affected their play. Smith in particular is a speed rusher as opposed to a power rusher. Grant comes closer to fitting the role of a DE in a 3-4, but even he has not shown the ability to use strength at the point of attack to the level required of a 3-4 DE.

In a 3-4, your DEs act more like a DTs and you depend on your OLBs to shoot the gaps while your DL ties up the LOS.

IMHO, neither Grant nor Smith have the capability to to the job required of a DE in a 3-4. More a case of power and talent than one of size, although again that does play a role. In fact, Smith would be more likely to be converted to an OLB in a 3-4 than a DE - but I wouldn't want to experiment with that conversion either.

From Randy Mueller:

There are several intricacies that define a 3-4 defense but the biggest difference from a personnel standpoint, in teams playing a 3-4, is in the criteria for playing the "defensive end" position. Here is a closer look at exactly what we are talking about:

In the more traditional and popular 4-3 your ends are best suited for lining up in space and rushing the passer on outside the edge of the tackle. Those players usually weight between 260 and 275 pounds. The are athletic and agile and their strength is getting up field with quickness and lean. The ideal 4-3 end also possesses an ability to lean and turn the corner and squeeze the pocket in which the quarterback is standing. Teams are wiling to give up size and strength for speed and edge rushing ability. The perfect fit for this style of defender is Carolina Panther Julius Peppers.

On the other hand a 3-4 defensive end is more like a defensive tackle. He must be strong at the point of attack and is aligned in most cases head up on an offensive tackle and must control runs gaps first and foremost. Size and strength become more of a factor because he plays in confines of line play and seldom is in space using athletic ability. Ideally this guy should weigh 275-290 pounds and be able to beat double teams by getting a push. It's a more physical task then that of a 4-3 end.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=1946758

While they may fit within the size suggestions above (note that Peppers, his ideal 4-3 DE, is 283 and fits nicely into the size suggestion for a 3-4 ), our guys play best in space and neither are particularly good at getting a push to beat the double teams. Adjusting their size to fit a 3-4 scheme isn't all it takes. These guys just aren't built to play that role - no matter how much weight you put on them. In fact, I'm almost willing to bet that Coach O sweats a little weight off of them to get them to a point where their strength really lies - speed and lean. And that is the opposite of what you want in a 3-4 DE.

But, of course, that is just my opinion.

 

[GrayMatter78]

i agree with you about our LBs, but i'm interested in your reasons for this... why do you think they wouldn't be good 34 DEs? surely they aren't too small (even smith, and grant is pushing 300 lbs)?

http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59244&highlight=3-4+defense

There has been a good thread on this in the past month. It has been stated over and over again that Will Smith is playing overweight and if he were back to his best size (275 lbs) he would be the effective pass rusher we thought we had.

Charles Grant is also playing overweight but still his best attribute is rushing the passer. He does well absorbing blocks at the point of attack but he needs to lose 10 or so pounds himself to be as effective as he's been in the past.

I copied this below from the same thread:

Will Smith is 6'3" 282 lbs. Here are the weights of some of other DEs that do play in a 3-4 scheme.

Dallas

Chris Canty -- Height: 6-7 Weight: 299
Marcus Spears -- Height: 6-4 Weight: 305

Baltimore

Haloti Ngata -- Height: 6-4 Weight: 340
Dwan Edwards -- Height: 6-3 Weight: 315

New England

Jarvis Green -- Height: 6-3 Weight: 285
Ty Warren -- Height: 6-5 Weight: 300

San Diego

Luis Castillo -- Height: 6-3 Weight: 290
Igor Olshansky -- Height: 6-6 Weight: 309

Pittsburgh

Brett Keisel -- Height: 6-5 Weight: 285
Nick Eason -- Height: 6-3 Weight: 305

===

It's not really about weight with the above guys but instead about the type of player they actually are. They eat up blocks and besides Ty Warren, are not very good at rushing the passer.

Smith only compares to a few of these guys but the most important reason Smith wouldn't play well in a 3-4 scheme at DE is because his best attribute would be neutralized. DEs in a 3-4 are not asked to pressure the QB as much as they are to take on blockers in order to get their LBs free.

 

[basilisk]

~~But, of course, that is just my opinion.

fair enough... it would require a major overhaul (the LBers 'specially) to go to a 34, and i do think if smith and grant were to both lose 10 lbs they'd be excellent in the 43... i honestly believe grant is over 300 right now, and imo he'd be hard to handle inside at that weight... but, jmo

 

[Nonreg]

of course they are, why do you think they aren't? too small? too slow? too big? too fast? they're 43 pass rushers, eh? i don't know the total but i doubt they have 25 sacks between them over the last two years

i think they'd be pretty good 34 DEs... grant at 295 (after losing about 10 lbs) and smith at 285

because they dont have the sacks that means they are automatically 3-4 DE's? thats laughable.

we are maybe 1 or 2 players away from having a outstanding 4-3 defensive line. if we can find a DT that can push the middle of the pocket, we would closely resemble the giants (Dorsey/Ellis). lets also mention that we have 0 LBs that fit the 3-4 scheme.

as someone mentioned above, grant and smith are edge speed rushers, not gap fillers.