Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Trailer (1 Viewer)

OP
Saint_Ward

Saint_Ward

Don't be a Jerk.
Staff member
Administrator
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
47,676
Reaction score
41,772
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Online
All of the other serums were an attempt to recreate the serum Steve took. They aren’t as perfect as the original formula.

Also, Steve trained like crazy in addition to what the serum did. He wasn’t just a product of the serum. I don’t think the Flag Smashers really worked at continuing to work on their bodies.
Yeah, remember, those flag smashers weren't exactly trained fighters.

It's why bucky, when he'd let himself go, and Walker could eventually beat then down. They're just far better trained.

If you remember, bullets still stopped Steve. He was just lucky Bucky grazed him and shot him in the torso away from anything vital (assumed).

But yeah, in Endgame, Cap was willing to go down fighting by himself. "I can do this all day"

And not only was his shield cut in half, he had a massive slash along his forearm. Shocked he didn't bleed out.
 

TheRealJRad

The Artist Formerly Known as AgentJRad
Staff member
Tech-Admin
VIP Subscribing Member
VIP Contributor
Joined
Dec 16, 2009
Messages
11,103
Reaction score
12,833
Age
37
Location
Baton Rouge
Online
If you remember, bullets still stopped Steve. He was just lucky Bucky grazed him and shot him in the torso away from anything vital (assumed).

And he still ended up in the hospital, presumably in some sort of coma, for a spell. I don’t think they indicated how long he was there/was out, but the scene made me feel like it was more than just a couple hours.

I believe he has accelerated healing.
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
63,504
Reaction score
105,888
Location
by the cemeteries
Online
You do realize the statue/memorial is only a part of this overall story, right? And to basically ignore Isaiah's reaction seems to totally disrespect Sam's efforts at beginning to make this right. It feels like you're calling the whole scene worthless. Both Sam and Isaiah thought this was meaningful.

This isn't supposed to make amends. This is supposed to begin rewriting the the story for Isaiah. The amends are coming in the form of Sam becoming Captain America and paving a new road for himself and Isaiah. Sam believes in what he's doing and he also is trying to include Isaiah in that transformative process. It's not all going to happen overnight. I mean, since you seem to hate how this ended, how would you write it then?
this is what i was talking about earlier when i think the show needed another 2-3 episodes bc only Sam gets a complete arc
none of the things you are saying are actual text (things we see/hear in the story)
i said what sold the scene was Carl's performance and i believe that - i think you are reading things into his performance, but textually we have him saying that no self-respecting black man would ever wear the stars and stripes
then we have Sam help beat the flagsmashers and rescue the GRC (which Isiah has not shown he has any relationship with - he was done dirty by the US govt which is only a part of the GRC and not really connected to his legit grievance)
Sam makes his speech to the senator and cameras which did not seem structurally different than the speech he had already given to Isiah to which Isiah reacted with the 'no self-respecting black man' line
Sam visits Isiah and Isiah gives him the 'i almost bought it' line and the 'you're not Malcolm/Martin' line - even if he was half kidding it still acknowledges that Sam's speech was rhetoric (with the tacit understanding that even with Martin & Malcolm's soaring rhetoric things really haven't gotten much better for african-americans)
then there is the walk through the room tucked away behind capt america's room - showing that Isiah not gets recognition - was that EVER anything Isiah said he wanted? he wanted to not have been experimented on and not to have been in prison when his wife died
there was no text in the show that said this was one step in a process - Isiah played it (believably) like he got validation (again, not what he said he wanted) - and Sharon got WAY more validation + restitution than Isiah got
 

DaveXA

I love the Lord!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
36,322
Reaction score
24,526
Age
50
Location
Vienna, VA via Lafayette
Offline
this is what i was talking about earlier when i think the show needed another 2-3 episodes bc only Sam gets a complete arc
none of the things you are saying are actual text (things we see/hear in the story)
i said what sold the scene was Carl's performance and i believe that - i think you are reading things into his performance, but textually we have him saying that no self-respecting black man would ever wear the stars and stripes
then we have Sam help beat the flagsmashers and rescue the GRC (which Isiah has not shown he has any relationship with - he was done dirty by the US govt which is only a part of the GRC and not really connected to his legit grievance)
Sam makes his speech to the senator and cameras which did not seem structurally different than the speech he had already given to Isiah to which Isiah reacted with the 'no self-respecting black man' line
Sam visits Isiah and Isiah gives him the 'i almost bought it' line and the 'you're not Malcolm/Martin' line - even if he was half kidding it still acknowledges that Sam's speech was rhetoric (with the tacit understanding that even with Martin & Malcolm's soaring rhetoric things really haven't gotten much better for african-americans)
then there is the walk through the room tucked away behind capt america's room - showing that Isiah not gets recognition - was that EVER anything Isiah said he wanted? he wanted to not have been experimented on and not to have been in prison when his wife died
there was no text in the show that said this was one step in a process - Isiah played it (believably) like he got validation (again, not what he said he wanted) - and Sharon got WAY more validation + restitution than Isiah got
I get that you're making a comparison between Sharon and Isaiah, but it's a mistake to do so because you're comparing apples and oranges. That and I'm pretty sure the writers never drew that comparison. And again Sharon was invited back. Isaiah could be invited back, but I don't think Isaiah has any interest in that.

I get that he has the dialogue with Sam about not being Malcolm or MLK line. Bit clearly Isaiah has come around about Sam and he's begun to respect that Sam is Captain America. I few more episodes maybe flesges that out some more. There actually was supposed to be more, but may have gotten cut out. The primary characters were the ones who got the most fleshed out arcs.

I don't need actual text or even dialogue to tell that Isaiah is appreciative of the fact that Sam wants to show him the memorial. It's written all over his face. I would have liked more Isaiah in the show. Maybe that would more fully answer how he got there. Do we have to make some assumptions? Sure, but that happens a lot. We just have to go with what we see sometimes.

Maybe he'll get his own show down the road and we all get to see him battle Bucky. I'd be all in on that.

And let's face it, Isaiah probably doesn't care about Sharon's validation or restitution. I think he's past all that. That's clearly not in the show, but if he's come around on Sam, he's probably come around on some other things. And let's remember that Sharon was offered to come back by Sam. He essentially promised she could come back. That had nothing to do Isaiah, and I don't think the comparison is warranted or makes any sense.
 

tenordas

Vesti le procè flamber
VIP Contributor
Joined
Aug 31, 1997
Messages
11,195
Reaction score
5,847
Location
Houston via New Jersey, New Orleans, Baton Rouge,
Offline
I'm actually not convinced that Sharon is the Power Broker. I still think she's working for the Power Broker. The main reason for this is a scene in episode 4 (I think, might have been 3) in which she's talking to Sam/Bucky on the phone. For no apparent reason, she is bleeding from her lip and her hand had a bruise or something. Now, they had been in the fight at the docks, but we had seen her talking with them on the phone since then without any visible trauma. So, either the continuity people screwed up (which I doubt), or that was a clue that she had had to answer to someone about what had happened and that someone didn't react well.
So my current theory is she is the front man for the Power Broker when dealing with close in associates (like Karli) so the Power Broker's actual identity remains that much more secret.
Just my thoughts on it. I could be wrong, and she is the Power Broker, but that seemed too straight forward to me.
 
Last edited:

Scorpius the Allfather

Dream Theater fanatic!
VIP Subscribing Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
14,889
Reaction score
11,878
Age
38
Location
Metairie, LA
Offline
this is what i was talking about earlier when i think the show needed another 2-3 episodes bc only Sam gets a complete arc
none of the things you are saying are actual text (things we see/hear in the story)
i said what sold the scene was Carl's performance and i believe that - i think you are reading things into his performance, but textually we have him saying that no self-respecting black man would ever wear the stars and stripes
then we have Sam help beat the flagsmashers and rescue the GRC (which Isiah has not shown he has any relationship with - he was done dirty by the US govt which is only a part of the GRC and not really connected to his legit grievance)
Sam makes his speech to the senator and cameras which did not seem structurally different than the speech he had already given to Isiah to which Isiah reacted with the 'no self-respecting black man' line
Sam visits Isiah and Isiah gives him the 'i almost bought it' line and the 'you're not Malcolm/Martin' line - even if he was half kidding it still acknowledges that Sam's speech was rhetoric (with the tacit understanding that even with Martin & Malcolm's soaring rhetoric things really haven't gotten much better for african-americans)
then there is the walk through the room tucked away behind capt america's room - showing that Isiah not gets recognition - was that EVER anything Isiah said he wanted? he wanted to not have been experimented on and not to have been in prison when his wife died
there was no text in the show that said this was one step in a process - Isiah played it (believably) like he got validation (again, not what he said he wanted) - and Sharon got WAY more validation + restitution than Isiah got
When your life gets scrubbed out of history to where you can't even prove that you exist, I'm sure wanting to be recognized officially for anything is something you would want. He shouldn't have had to say it out loud for you to pick up on it.
 

Scorpius the Allfather

Dream Theater fanatic!
VIP Subscribing Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
14,889
Reaction score
11,878
Age
38
Location
Metairie, LA
Offline
I'm actually not convinced that Sharon is the Power Broker. I still think she's working for the Power Broker. The main reason for this is a scene in episode 4 (I think, might have been 3) in which she's talking to Sam/Bucky on the phone. For no apparent reason, she is bleeding from her lip and her hand had a bruise or something. Now, they had been in the fight at the docks, but we has seen her talking with them on the phone since then without any visible trauma. So, either the continuity people screwed up (which I doubt), or that was a clue that she had had to answer to someone about what had happened and that someone didn't react well.
So my current theory is she is the front man for the Power Broker when dealing with close in associates (like Karli) so the Power Broker's actual identity remains that much more secret.
Just my thoughts on it. I could be wrong, and she is the Power Broker, but that seemed too straight forward to me.
They couldn't even get the right amount of years right in the beginning of the first Spider-Man so it's completely logical that they could get the continuity wrong here.
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
63,504
Reaction score
105,888
Location
by the cemeteries
Online
I get that you're making a comparison between Sharon and Isaiah, but it's a mistake to do so because you're comparing apples and oranges. That and I'm pretty sure the writers never drew that comparison. And again Sharon was invited back. Isaiah could be invited back, but I don't think Isaiah has any interest in that.

I get that he has the dialogue with Sam about not being Malcolm or MLK line. Bit clearly Isaiah has come around about Sam and he's begun to respect that Sam is Captain America. I few more episodes maybe flesges that out some more. There actually was supposed to be more, but may have gotten cut out. The primary characters were the ones who got the most fleshed out arcs.

I don't need actual text or even dialogue to tell that Isaiah is appreciative of the fact that Sam wants to show him the memorial. It's written all over his face. I would have liked more Isaiah in the show. Maybe that would more fully answer how he got there. Do we have to make some assumptions? Sure, but that happens a lot. We just have to go with what we see sometimes.

Maybe he'll get his own show down the road and we all get to see him battle Bucky. I'd be all in on that.

And let's face it, Isaiah probably doesn't care about Sharon's validation or restitution. I think he's past all that. That's clearly not in the show, but if he's come around on Sam, he's probably come around on some other things. And let's remember that Sharon was offered to come back by Sam. He essentially promised she could come back. That had nothing to do Isaiah, and I don't think the comparison is warranted or makes any sense.
a few things - the Sharon thing is my "oh and another thing" it is not my central concern
BUT
i promise you that if the writers have been in a high school creative writing class and beyond that they obsess about this stuff - they would not be in a marvel writing room if they did not have exquisite perspective of how their writing fits
plus the director and editor(s) are certainly thinking about this - the editor is making exactly these choices
and then, of course, it doesn't 'really' matter if it was intended or not - it's on the screen - there are 5-7 story arcs closing this episode, all of them comparable to all others

again, 'if there was more episodes' is what i'm saying - the 'rushed' ending exposed some story concerns/short cuts

also again, Isiah did not need to complete his circle with Sam bc his issue wasn't with Sam - he was Sam 60 years ago...until the govt did him dirty (sam didn't do him dirty) - the govt is really the only entity that can even try to make him whole (or make sure what happened to him doesn't happen again - and not even Sam is naive enough to believe that)
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
63,504
Reaction score
105,888
Location
by the cemeteries
Online
When your life gets scrubbed out of history to where you can't even prove that you exist, I'm sure wanting to be recognized officially for anything is something you would want. He shouldn't have had to say it out loud for you to pick up on it.
i'm not saying that it's no where on his list of concerns, i'm saying that he stated VERY clearly many concerns that certainly take precedence over recognition
the show making it about recognition gaslights the many other very legit concerns he has
 

DaveXA

I love the Lord!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
36,322
Reaction score
24,526
Age
50
Location
Vienna, VA via Lafayette
Offline
i'm not saying that it's no where on his list of concerns, i'm saying that he stated VERY clearly many concerns that certainly take precedence over recognition
the show making it about recognition gaslights the many other very legit concerns he has
I just don't think it does. And regardless, the story isn't finished yet. We don't know that the recognition is the only or even primary concern. We know his other concerns. Sam has acknowledged that. The government did at least acknowledge their mistake in how they handled Isaiah, first, by sanctioning and recognizing him through the memorial. I don't think that's the end. I'm sure that because they sanctioned the memorial, they would also restore his status to whatever it was supposed to be when he was disappeared and expunge any blemish on his records for when he was imprisoned.

Maybe we get that in a future show or movie. I just think you're jumping the gun on a story that didn't get fleshed out fully, and maybe is being saved for later because of time limitations.

I don't think Isaiah wants recognition. If anything, he'd already given up any hope of justice and decided to stay disappeared on his own terms. He clearly has other more important concerns, but the recognition given to him by Sam and the memorial is a starting point for possibly addressing those concerns he has. He acknowledged that through his reaction. I'm pretty sure he realizes this will be a long process, and Sam is the one who got the ball rolling.

I'll just have to agree to disagree on the Sharon comparison. I just don't think it's apt comparison because they're completely different circumstances. The similarities between them are superficial at best.
 

Scorpius the Allfather

Dream Theater fanatic!
VIP Subscribing Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
14,889
Reaction score
11,878
Age
38
Location
Metairie, LA
Offline
I liked this show more than Wandavision. I liked Wandavision but when our own theories are better than what we got then that's a problem.
 

DaveXA

I love the Lord!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
36,322
Reaction score
24,526
Age
50
Location
Vienna, VA via Lafayette
Offline
I liked this show more than Wandavision. I liked Wandavision but when our own theories are better than what we got then that's a problem.

This show was more my speed, but I really enjoyed WV as well. They're so different it's hard to compare them.
 
Last edited:

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

 

New Orleans Saints Twitter Feed

 

Headlines

Top Bottom