Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Trailer (1 Viewer)

Krodwhodat

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First paragraph...such as?

Second. Possibly, but, I think it's really a continuation of a pro-US theme that has long been a thrust of Marvel comics storytelling.

That said, there's plenty of making the US government look like a bunch of incompetents. Tony Stark made a living off of making our military and Congressional leaders look like idiots. Nick Fury and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D, Avengers, and actually a lot of Marvel properties have been at odds with the US government. That's never really been a secret. So there may be some pulling back, but it seems there's plenty of us vs them when it comes to the US government. You wouldn't see anything like that with shows criticizing their own governments in China or Russia for example.

So if Marvel is pulling up, it's hard to tell from where I sit.


I agree. These days most movies revolve around the US government being heartless, evil or incompetent. It’s pretty much the norm
 

St. Widge

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I liked this show more than Wandavision. I liked Wandavision but when our own theories are better than what we got then that's a problem.

I'm kind of the opposite on this. I thought Wandavision was much better and I thought this, while entertaining, was pretty disappointing. It was a pretty mundane story that felt rushed. It could have been more, but they seemed to have just rushed it to fit it in 6 episodes for some reason.

As far as Wandavision, I think it's become all to common with the rise of things like Reddit that people overanalyze shows, create their own theories of what is going on, and then are disappointed/enraged when the show doesn't do the storyline that they thought they were going to do. Personally, I just like to watch a show and judge it based on what they did do, not some theory I had about what it could have been. Which is why I think The Falcon and The Winter Soldier was pretty meh. The story they gave us just wasn't a particularly good story.
 

DaveXA

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I'm kind of the opposite on this. I thought Wandavision was much better and I thought this, while entertaining, was pretty disappointing. It was a pretty mundane story that felt rushed. It could have been more, but they seemed to have just rushed it to fit it in 6 episodes for some reason.

As far as Wandavision, I think it's become all to common with the rise of things like Reddit that people overanalyze shows, create their own theories of what is going on, and then are disappointed/enraged when the show doesn't do the storyline that they thought they were going to do. Personally, I just like to watch a show and judge it based on what they did do, not some theory I had about what it could have been. Which is why I think The Falcon and The Winter Soldier was pretty meh. The story they gave us just wasn't a particularly good story.

I know it sounds reductionist, but...Covid. It's really that simple. Considering they had to pull a major plot line, and likely some minor ones, I can understand why some might feel it's somewhat incomplete.

That said, they did close out some major plot points and set us up for future shows/movies. I loved the show. Yeah, wish there was more, sure, but I still liked it quite a bit.




Yeah, I was. :hihi:
 

St. Widge

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I know it sounds reductionist, but...Covid. It's really that simple. Considering they had to pull a major plot line, and likely some minor ones, I can understand why some might feel it's somewhat incomplete.

That said, they did close out some major plot points and set us up for future shows/movies. I loved the show. Yeah, wish there was more, sure, but I still liked it quite a bit.

I'm sure it was COVID related. But, like I said, I tend to judge on what I get in the show and I found it kind of disappointing. I mean, it was better than most of the junk you get on network TV, but I expect more from Disney and Marvel. If it wasn't quite ready, I think they should have just waited a few more months to get it there.
 

DaveXA

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I'm sure it was COVID related. But, like I said, I tend to judge on what I get in the show and I found it kind of disappointing. I mean, it was better than most of the junk you get on network TV, but I expect more from Disney and Marvel. If it wasn't quite ready, I think they should have just waited a few more months to get it there.
Sure, but at the expense of possibly pushing back the entire phase? I'm not sure either they or us are ready to mess with the overall schedule that much. It's already been modified quite a bit. It's a calculated risk, sure, but with Marvel having so many moving parts, sometimes you have to go with what you have. And it's also possible they'll address some of the missing parts later in the phase.

All that said, what would you say is missing from the show?
 

St. Widge

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Sure, but at the expense of possibly pushing back the entire phase? I'm not sure either they or us are ready to mess with the overall schedule that much. It's already been modified quite a bit. It's a calculated risk, sure, but with Marvel having so many moving parts, sometimes you have to go with what you have. And it's also possible they'll address some of the missing parts later in the phase.

All that said, what would you say is missing from the show?

It's hard to say, but I guess there was a lack of real character development. For instance, the John Walker character goes from good guy to insance murdered back to good guy with no real explanation. He clearly goes insane because of the serum, but no explanation of how he comes back from that. I also thought that the tension between Bucky and Sam was kind of contrived and only saved by the fact that Anthony Mackie is a great actor. Then there is the lack of development to the story of the flag smashers, the Valentina woman, and Sharon Carter. And, from a pure enjoyment point of view, I wanted more Wakanda stuff in the show.

I get that all those things will probably be fleshed out in the broader MCU and that this may set up a lot of things like Captain America 4, but it seems like this entire show was more of bridge show to set up further properties in the MCU than telling a cohesive story.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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First paragraph...such as?

Second. Possibly, but, I think it's really a continuation of a pro-US theme that has long been a thrust of Marvel comics storytelling.

That said, there's plenty of making the US government look like a bunch of incompetents. Tony Stark made a living off of making our military and Congressional leaders look like idiots. Nick Fury and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D, Avengers, and actually a lot of Marvel properties have been at odds with the US government. That's never really been a secret. So there may be some pulling back, but it seems there's plenty of us vs them when it comes to the US government. You wouldn't see anything like that with shows criticizing their own governments in China or Russia for example.

So if Marvel is pulling up, it's hard to tell from where I sit.
Valkyrie, Loki (bi), Wanda's kids story cutting out right before sexuality
then there was marvel seeming to bristle at the broshipping of Cap & bucky - Sharon seemed to have been deployed just to give Cap a female to kiss on (the story does not make a lot of sense)

the 'pulling up' is Marvel engaging in legit conversation, but avoiding consequence at the end
GRC does not suffer consequence, no consequence for what happened to Isiah,
Magneto is right but nothing gets fixed, Kilmonger is right but nothing gets fixed
i think Garry Shandling is the only govt type that suffers consequence
 

DaveXA

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It's hard to say, but I guess there was a lack of real character development. For instance, the John Walker character goes from good guy to insance murdered back to good guy with no real explanation. He clearly goes insane because of the serum, but no explanation of how he comes back from that. I also thought that the tension between Bucky and Sam was kind of contrived and only saved by the fact that Anthony Mackie is a great actor. Then there is the lack of development to the story of the flag smashers, the Valentina woman, and Sharon Carter. And, from a pure enjoyment point of view, I wanted more Wakanda stuff in the show.

I get that all those things will probably be fleshed out in the broader MCU and that this may set up a lot of things like Captain America 4, but it seems like this entire show was more of bridge show to set up further properties in the MCU than telling a cohesive story.

For Walker, he was insecure from the word go. Insecure good guys make mistakes. And while I think the serum did cause his rage induced killing, him losing his best friend really was the trigger as much if not more than the serum. Even after, he struggled to do the right thing when he wanted to kill Karli, but knew the people in the armored vehicle were about to face death. So, from start to finish, we're never entirely sure where exactly he stands. That's a byproduct of his insecurities imo.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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It's hard to say, but I guess there was a lack of real character development. For instance, the John Walker character goes from good guy to insance murdered back to good guy with no real explanation. He clearly goes insane because of the serum, but no explanation of how he comes back from that. I also thought that the tension between Bucky and Sam was kind of contrived and only saved by the fact that Anthony Mackie is a great actor. Then there is the lack of development to the story of the flag smashers, the Valentina woman, and Sharon Carter. And, from a pure enjoyment point of view, I wanted more Wakanda stuff in the show.

I get that all those things will probably be fleshed out in the broader MCU and that this may set up a lot of things like Captain America 4, but it seems like this entire show was more of bridge show to set up further properties in the MCU than telling a cohesive story.
that's what i was saying in my initial spoiler take
Sam gets a full arc (even a classic Joseph Campbell hero arc)
everybody else gets a beginning and a resolution without much middle
 

Merl

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I agree. These days most movies revolve around the US government being heartless, evil or incompetent. It’s pretty much the norm
That is the norm for most of Hollywood and has been since the 1960's
 

St. Widge

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For Walker, he was insecure from the word go. Insecure good guys make mistakes. And while I think the serum did cause his rage induced killing, him losing his best friend really was the trigger as much if not more than the serum. Even after, he struggled to do the right thing when he wanted to kill Karli, but knew the people in the armored vehicle were about to face death. So, from start to finish, we're never entirely sure where exactly he stands. That's a byproduct of his insecurities imo.

I think it's a byproduct of bad writing or lack of character development because the show was rushed and squeezed into 6 episodes. And there is more to develop for that character which I think will likely happen in Captain America 4 which is why it feels more like a bridge show to me.

In the end, I have a lot of niggles about individual story lines and lack of character development, etc. And, that's all stuff I wouldn't focus on if the show was more "epic." I guess I expect my Marvel superhero shows and movies to be epic and this wasn't. If you give me "epic", I can ignore a lot of nuance and character development issues. But, if you make a show all about character development and with multiple nuanced discrete story lines, you have to do a better job with character development and with developing all those story lines.

That being said, this is all subjective so I can get why others may have really like this show and don't have my issues with it. And, I'll be ready for Loki in June.
 
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DaveXA

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I think it's a byproduct of bad writing or lack of character development because the show was rushed and squeezed into 6 episodes. And there is more to develop for that character which I think will likely happen in Captain America 4 which is why it feels more like a bridge show to me.

In the end, I have a lot of niggles about individual story lines and lack of character development, etc. And, that's all stuff I wouldn't focus on if the show was more "epic." I guess I expect my Marvel superhero shows and movies to be epic and this wasn't. If you give me "epic", I can ignore a lot of nuance and character development issues. But, if you make a show all about character development and with multiple nuanced discrete story lines, you have to do a better job with character development and with developing all those story lines.

That being said, this is all subjective so I can get why others may have really like this show and don't have my issues with it. And, I'll be ready for Loki in June.
I think we're all ready for some Loki, :yes:.
 

DaveXA

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that's what i was saying in my initial spoiler take
Sam gets a full arc (even a classic Joseph Campbell hero arc)
everybody else gets a beginning and a resolution without much middle

Yeah, I can see it, even though I didn't really miss it all that much.
 

DaveXA

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Valkyrie, Loki (bi), Wanda's kids story cutting out right before sexuality
then there was marvel seeming to bristle at the broshipping of Cap & bucky - Sharon seemed to have been deployed just to give Cap a female to kiss on (the story does not make a lot of sense)

the 'pulling up' is Marvel engaging in legit conversation, but avoiding consequence at the end
GRC does not suffer consequence, no consequence for what happened to Isiah,
Magneto is right but nothing gets fixed, Kilmonger is right but nothing gets fixed
i think Garry Shandling is the only govt type that suffers consequence
Never heard or thought any of that before. So, :shrug:.

I wouldn't call most of that Marvel pulling up. To me, that's just fans being mad or upset about not getting what they want.
 

Krodwhodat

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Sure, but at the expense of possibly pushing back the entire phase? I'm not sure either they or us are ready to mess with the overall schedule that much. It's already been modified quite a bit. It's a calculated risk, sure, but with Marvel having so many moving parts, sometimes you have to go with what you have. And it's also possible they'll address some of the missing parts later in the phase.

All that said, what would you say is missing from the show?

I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.
so too much time spent on the black guy?
(63% joking)
 

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