Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Trailer (1 Viewer)

DaveXA

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I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.

I guess, but, Marvel isn't going to hit a home run or be epic every time. This was still several rungs better than anything you'll get from DC. I think we're just spoiled a bit, and maybe we need to reset our expectations a bit.

And Karli, come on. People can survive multiple gunshot wounds, and die from a single well place shot any time. I think that's an unreasonable nitpick.

I don't think Bucky was neglected at all. Did you forget his therapy sessions? Making amends? Encouraging and/or arguing with Sam? Expressing his concerns about Walker? Bucky was a big part of the plot. I just don't see him being neglected.
 

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I know that a lot of people never read Captain America's comics so I understand that people misunderstand the whole thing.

I have over 50 years of comics where Marvel tackled all of these political, and racial, issues and they didn't duck, dodge, hide or skirt around the issues because they were afraid of stepping on somebody's toes.

There's a reason why Captain America comics historically don't sell. A lot of people expect his character to be driving around in a lifted pickup, covered in bumper stickers with flags waving from the bed. Many don't touch the books because they don't want to bother with that. Other's, who expect that, are turned off because he isn't like that.

The character is supposed to represent the ideal of America, not the reality. If anything, this show dodges some of the issues. In the comics Sam and Steve dealt with 1970's inner city issues, they fought in the middle of race riots. They didn't take on the issue from an old white guy point of view. They had characters who adequately explained the African American point of view of the time. The bank loan stuff? They dealt with much harder issues than that.

Maybe take a look around at how corrupt politicians face consequences. They don't. At least, not to the degree that we would. The comics were full of that. Steve Rogers walked away after Nixon. The comics, and the show were just being real.

I agree that Bucky didn't get the time that he needed. I think that they could do a "White Wolf" series and have it be more highly anticipated than before.
 

DaveXA

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I know that a lot of people never read Captain America's comics so I understand that people misunderstand the whole thing.

I have over 50 years of comics where Marvel tackled all of these political, and racial, issues and they didn't duck, dodge, hide or skirt around the issues because they were afraid of stepping on somebody's toes.

There's a reason why Captain America comics historically don't sell. A lot of people expect his character to be driving around in a lifted pickup, covered in bumper stickers with flags waving from the bed. Many don't touch the books because they don't want to bother with that. Other's, who expect that, are turned off because he isn't like that.

The character is supposed to represent the ideal of America, not the reality. If anything, this show dodges some of the issues. In the comics Sam and Steve dealt with 1970's inner city issues, they fought in the middle of race riots. They didn't take on the issue from an old white guy point of view. They had characters who adequately explained the African American point of view of the time. The bank loan stuff? They dealt with much harder issues than that.

Maybe take a look around at how corrupt politicians face consequences. They don't. At least, not to the degree that we would. The comics were full of that. Steve Rogers walked away after Nixon. The comics, and the show were just being real.

I agree that Bucky didn't get the time that he needed. I think that they could do a "White Wolf" series and have it be more highly anticipated than before.

I just don't understand the idea that Bucky didn't get enough time. I thought he had plenty. Now I think we didn't get enough of the show itself. 6 episodes felt too short and some characters could have been developed more. But again, that may have been a result of Covid.

Points well taken on the comics. Translating comics to the small screen has it's challenges and there are time and relevance considerations to keep in mind. Audiences for comic books are a different demographic than those under the Disney/Marvel MCU.

Let's face it, it's going to be produced with the widest possible audience in mind. It's certainly not going to make some purists happy, and others more conscious of social justice will often feel their causes don't get enough attention. The producers and directors have considerations that maybe we're not privy to. I don't know who sits in the board rooms and decides what the boundaries are, but I'm sure they do wrestle with all of that.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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I just don't understand the idea that Bucky didn't get enough time. I thought he had plenty. Now I think we didn't get enough of the show itself. 6 episodes felt too short and some characters could have been developed more. But again, that may have been a result of Covid.
my issue with Bucky wasn't that he got shorted for time, it was more that - like Isaiah - they took a shortcut in his redemption
Sam even pointed out that Bucky needed to make amends - he didn't. all he really did was take his burden off his shoulders and give it to Yori -- it's a trope that i really expected them to avoid, but the drove right through it
 

guidomerkinsrules

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I know it sounds reductionist, but...Covid. It's really that simple. Considering they had to pull a major plot line, and likely some minor ones, I can understand why some might feel it's somewhat incomplete.

That said, they did close out some major plot points and set us up for future shows/movies. I loved the show. Yeah, wish there was more, sure, but I still liked it quite a bit.
again i agree with the covidness of it all (while still acknowledging that any story that goes up on screen is open for commentary)
and both Marvel/Disney have a **** ton of shows lined up and it would probably cause all kinds of logistical issues to back up the whole gamut (much less their subscription plan)

Marvel also has the added burden of doing all this in their 2nd or 3rd most significant transition ever (phase 1 to 2 was probably a bigger gamble and some of their publishing gambles were huge even though the stakes were much lower)
but Phase 4 was always going to be major and now having to do it during a global pandemic is just nuts
 

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I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.
This is like watching the Joker and complaining that they spent too much time focusing on his psychosis.

The thing you're overlooking is that for a black man to assume the role of Captain America it's going to be political and very much personal.

And ALL of Marvel is a political statement. From Stark's stance on U.S 's spending on weapon technology to the Sokovia Accords. It's only an unneeded political statement when you don't want to hear about the specific politics in question.
 

DaveXA

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my issue with Bucky wasn't that he got shorted for time, it was more that - like Isaiah - they took a shortcut in his redemption
Sam even pointed out that Bucky needed to make amends - he didn't. all he really did was take his burden off his shoulders and give it to Yori -- it's a trope that i really expected them to avoid, but the drove right through it

But he did make the amends. There's only so much Bucky can do. He kills a man's son, then after learning who he is, he has to work up the courage to go to the guy and admit what he did. It's not like Bucky can give the guy his son back. But he can at least offer closure and the truth about how he died.

And Bucky turned in his crossed off list. It's not like we get to see all of that happen. Some things we take on faith that they did get done. Maybe it was a shortcut, but some parts of a journey will inevitably get left out of a story. People will always have differing opinions on what parts should be explored further.

Also, I don't expect that Bucky will be great at making those amends. He's gonna do it the way he knows how. Going from a mind controlled assassin, to a guy who is still finding himself and clearly socially awkward, making amends is no walk in the park for him.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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But he did make the amends. There's only so much Bucky can do. He kills a man's son, then after learning who he is, he has to work up the courage to go to the guy and admit what he did. It's not like Bucky can give the guy his son back. But he can at least offer closure and the truth about how he died.

And Bucky turned in his crossed off list. It's not like we get to see all of that happen. Some things we take on faith that they did get done. Maybe it was a shortcut, but some parts of a journey will inevitably get left out of a story. People will always have differing opinions on what parts should be explored further.

Also, I don't expect that Bucky will be great at making those amends. He's gonna do it the way he knows how. Going from a mind controlled assassin, to a guy who is still finding himself and clearly socially awkward, making amends is no walk in the park for him.
Which is why we need that scene - they ya da da-d the crux of the scene/journey
the point is not that Bucky feels bad about what he’s done - he’s already there
the point is not that Bucky confesses - he’s already doing that
what we needed to hear is what Yori needed
bucky confessing is not making amends
the writers did not complete Bucky’s arc
you seem to have completed it for yourself which is fine, but that’s not text
 

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this is what i was talking about earlier when i think the show needed another 2-3 episodes bc only Sam gets a complete arc
none of the things you are saying are actual text (things we see/hear in the story)
i said what sold the scene was Carl's performance and i believe that - i think you are reading things into his performance, but textually we have him saying that no self-respecting black man would ever wear the stars and stripes
then we have Sam help beat the flagsmashers and rescue the GRC (which Isiah has not shown he has any relationship with - he was done dirty by the US govt which is only a part of the GRC and not really connected to his legit grievance)
Sam makes his speech to the senator and cameras which did not seem structurally different than the speech he had already given to Isiah to which Isiah reacted with the 'no self-respecting black man' line
Sam visits Isiah and Isiah gives him the 'i almost bought it' line and the 'you're not Malcolm/Martin' line - even if he was half kidding it still acknowledges that Sam's speech was rhetoric (with the tacit understanding that even with Martin & Malcolm's soaring rhetoric things really haven't gotten much better for african-americans)
then there is the walk through the room tucked away behind capt america's room - showing that Isiah not gets recognition - was that EVER anything Isiah said he wanted? he wanted to not have been experimented on and not to have been in prison when his wife died
there was no text in the show that said this was one step in a process - Isiah played it (believably) like he got validation (again, not what he said he wanted) - and Sharon got WAY more validation + restitution than Isiah got

I agree, except I also remembered that according to the government, Isiah Bradley is dead. And I don't think he's in a place when this show ends that he wants them to know he is alive. Certainly not before he visits the museum. Maybe he comes "back from the dead" in the future, but as you pointed out a few times, that's not in the text yet.

Which is why we need that scene - they ya da da-d the crux of the scene/journey
the point is not that Bucky feels bad about what he’s done - he’s already there
the point is not that Bucky confesses - he’s already doing that
what we needed to hear is what Yori needed
bucky confessing is not making amends
the writers did not complete Bucky’s arc
you seem to have completed it for yourself which is fine, but that’s not text

I thought Bucky's amends were to give Yori a new friend in the female waitress he had a date with in the first episode. She gives Bucky a knowing look through the window in the scene where he sees her and Yori talking in the restaurant. But I could have just wrote that part myself as it wasn't really clear.
 

DaveXA

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Which is why we need that scene - they ya da da-d the crux of the scene/journey
the point is not that Bucky feels bad about what he’s done - he’s already there
the point is not that Bucky confesses - he’s already doing that
what we needed to hear is what Yori needed
bucky confessing is not making amends
the writers did not complete Bucky’s arc
you seem to have completed it for yourself which is fine, but that’s not text

I'm not sure why we need to know what Yori needed. This is about Bucky making amends, not about Yori. Confessing is part of Bucky's making amends. It feels like you're projecting how Bucky should make his amends. What exactly is it that Bucky is supposed to do? And how he makes amends might be different than how you would. We all make amends in our own way to some degree.
 

DaveXA

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I agree, except I also remembered that according to the government, Isiah Bradley is dead. And I don't think he's in a place when this show ends that he wants them to know he is alive. Certainly not before he visits the museum. Maybe he comes "back from the dead" in the future, but as you pointed out a few times, that's not in the text yet.



I thought Bucky's amends were to give Yori a new friend in the female waitress he had a date with in the first episode. She gives Bucky a knowing look through the window in the scene where he sees her and Yori talking in the restaurant. But I could have just wrote that part myself as it wasn't really clear.

Oof, for some reason I thought she was Yori's daughter. :covri:
 

DaveXA

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That is the norm for most of Hollywood and has been since the 1960's

Lying about the Gulf of Tonkin and Nixion will do that
But he did make the amends. There's only so much Bucky can do. He kills a man's son, then after learning who he is, he has to work up the courage to go to the guy and admit what he did. It's not like Bucky can give the guy his son back. But he can at least offer closure and the truth about how he died.

And Bucky turned in his crossed off list. It's not like we get to see all of that happen. Some things we take on faith that they did get done. Maybe it was a shortcut, but some parts of a journey will inevitably get left out of a story. People will always have differing opinions on what parts should be explored further.

Also, I don't expect that Bucky will be great at making those amends. He's gonna do it the way he knows how. Going from a mind controlled assassin, to a guy who is still finding himself and clearly socially awkward, making amends is no walk in the park for him.

Honestly, I think the whole thing would have been better had be gotten Sam's story and Bucky's story told in separate series. I mean, the only thing that linked them was they were both friends with Steve. I'm not sure why they needed to be pushed into the same series. Especially when that series is only 6 episodes long. I think this would be a better series if it was only about Sam and there was a story about Bucky that could have been made that probably focused more on Wakanda and possibly the search for Zemo. Zemo wasn't really necessary to this story and probably would have worked better in a Winter Soldier stand alone series.
 

DaveXA

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Lying about the Gulf of Tonkin and Nixion will do that


Honestly, I think the whole thing would have been better had be gotten Sam's story and Bucky's story told in separate series. I mean, the only thing that linked them was they were both friends with Steve. I'm not sure why they needed to be pushed into the same series. Especially when that series is only 6 episodes long. I think this would be a better series if it was only about Sam and there was a story about Bucky that could have been made that probably focused more on Wakanda and possibly the search for Zemo. Zemo wasn't really necessary to this story and probably would have worked better in a Winter Soldier stand alone series.
Agreed. Although it's somewhat understandable. At the end of Endgame Steve gave the shield to Sam. Bucky was there when it happened. They both probably thought Steve was going to give it to Bucky. So this series was about Bucky finding his role along with Sam's journey to making the shield his own.

While I acknowledge Zemo probably wasn't needed, I liked him in the show.

The series probably really needed to be 10-12 episodes to really cover all the bases. 6 was just not sufficient.
 

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