Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Trailer (1 Viewer)

It's hard to say, but I guess there was a lack of real character development. For instance, the John Walker character goes from good guy to insance murdered back to good guy with no real explanation. He clearly goes insane because of the serum, but no explanation of how he comes back from that. I also thought that the tension between Bucky and Sam was kind of contrived and only saved by the fact that Anthony Mackie is a great actor. Then there is the lack of development to the story of the flag smashers, the Valentina woman, and Sharon Carter. And, from a pure enjoyment point of view, I wanted more Wakanda stuff in the show.

I get that all those things will probably be fleshed out in the broader MCU and that this may set up a lot of things like Captain America 4, but it seems like this entire show was more of bridge show to set up further properties in the MCU than telling a cohesive story.
that's what i was saying in my initial spoiler take
Sam gets a full arc (even a classic Joseph Campbell hero arc)
everybody else gets a beginning and a resolution without much middle
 
I agree. These days most movies revolve around the US government being heartless, evil or incompetent. It’s pretty much the norm
That is the norm for most of Hollywood and has been since the 1960's
 
For Walker, he was insecure from the word go. Insecure good guys make mistakes. And while I think the serum did cause his rage induced killing, him losing his best friend really was the trigger as much if not more than the serum. Even after, he struggled to do the right thing when he wanted to kill Karli, but knew the people in the armored vehicle were about to face death. So, from start to finish, we're never entirely sure where exactly he stands. That's a byproduct of his insecurities imo.

I think it's a byproduct of bad writing or lack of character development because the show was rushed and squeezed into 6 episodes. And there is more to develop for that character which I think will likely happen in Captain America 4 which is why it feels more like a bridge show to me.

In the end, I have a lot of niggles about individual story lines and lack of character development, etc. And, that's all stuff I wouldn't focus on if the show was more "epic." I guess I expect my Marvel superhero shows and movies to be epic and this wasn't. If you give me "epic", I can ignore a lot of nuance and character development issues. But, if you make a show all about character development and with multiple nuanced discrete story lines, you have to do a better job with character development and with developing all those story lines.

That being said, this is all subjective so I can get why others may have really like this show and don't have my issues with it. And, I'll be ready for Loki in June.
 
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I think it's a byproduct of bad writing or lack of character development because the show was rushed and squeezed into 6 episodes. And there is more to develop for that character which I think will likely happen in Captain America 4 which is why it feels more like a bridge show to me.

In the end, I have a lot of niggles about individual story lines and lack of character development, etc. And, that's all stuff I wouldn't focus on if the show was more "epic." I guess I expect my Marvel superhero shows and movies to be epic and this wasn't. If you give me "epic", I can ignore a lot of nuance and character development issues. But, if you make a show all about character development and with multiple nuanced discrete story lines, you have to do a better job with character development and with developing all those story lines.

That being said, this is all subjective so I can get why others may have really like this show and don't have my issues with it. And, I'll be ready for Loki in June.
I think we're all ready for some Loki, :yes:.
 
Valkyrie, Loki (bi), Wanda's kids story cutting out right before sexuality
then there was marvel seeming to bristle at the broshipping of Cap & bucky - Sharon seemed to have been deployed just to give Cap a female to kiss on (the story does not make a lot of sense)

the 'pulling up' is Marvel engaging in legit conversation, but avoiding consequence at the end
GRC does not suffer consequence, no consequence for what happened to Isiah,
Magneto is right but nothing gets fixed, Kilmonger is right but nothing gets fixed
i think Garry Shandling is the only govt type that suffers consequence
Never heard or thought any of that before. So, :shrug:.

I wouldn't call most of that Marvel pulling up. To me, that's just fans being mad or upset about not getting what they want.
 
Sure, but at the expense of possibly pushing back the entire phase? I'm not sure either they or us are ready to mess with the overall schedule that much. It's already been modified quite a bit. It's a calculated risk, sure, but with Marvel having so many moving parts, sometimes you have to go with what you have. And it's also possible they'll address some of the missing parts later in the phase.

All that said, what would you say is missing from the show?

I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.
 
I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.
so too much time spent on the black guy?
(63% joking)
 
I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.

I guess, but, Marvel isn't going to hit a home run or be epic every time. This was still several rungs better than anything you'll get from DC. I think we're just spoiled a bit, and maybe we need to reset our expectations a bit.

And Karli, come on. People can survive multiple gunshot wounds, and die from a single well place shot any time. I think that's an unreasonable nitpick.

I don't think Bucky was neglected at all. Did you forget his therapy sessions? Making amends? Encouraging and/or arguing with Sam? Expressing his concerns about Walker? Bucky was a big part of the plot. I just don't see him being neglected.
 
I know that a lot of people never read Captain America's comics so I understand that people misunderstand the whole thing.

I have over 50 years of comics where Marvel tackled all of these political, and racial, issues and they didn't duck, dodge, hide or skirt around the issues because they were afraid of stepping on somebody's toes.

There's a reason why Captain America comics historically don't sell. A lot of people expect his character to be driving around in a lifted pickup, covered in bumper stickers with flags waving from the bed. Many don't touch the books because they don't want to bother with that. Other's, who expect that, are turned off because he isn't like that.

The character is supposed to represent the ideal of America, not the reality. If anything, this show dodges some of the issues. In the comics Sam and Steve dealt with 1970's inner city issues, they fought in the middle of race riots. They didn't take on the issue from an old white guy point of view. They had characters who adequately explained the African American point of view of the time. The bank loan stuff? They dealt with much harder issues than that.

Maybe take a look around at how corrupt politicians face consequences. They don't. At least, not to the degree that we would. The comics were full of that. Steve Rogers walked away after Nixon. The comics, and the show were just being real.

I agree that Bucky didn't get the time that he needed. I think that they could do a "White Wolf" series and have it be more highly anticipated than before.
 
I know that a lot of people never read Captain America's comics so I understand that people misunderstand the whole thing.

I have over 50 years of comics where Marvel tackled all of these political, and racial, issues and they didn't duck, dodge, hide or skirt around the issues because they were afraid of stepping on somebody's toes.

There's a reason why Captain America comics historically don't sell. A lot of people expect his character to be driving around in a lifted pickup, covered in bumper stickers with flags waving from the bed. Many don't touch the books because they don't want to bother with that. Other's, who expect that, are turned off because he isn't like that.

The character is supposed to represent the ideal of America, not the reality. If anything, this show dodges some of the issues. In the comics Sam and Steve dealt with 1970's inner city issues, they fought in the middle of race riots. They didn't take on the issue from an old white guy point of view. They had characters who adequately explained the African American point of view of the time. The bank loan stuff? They dealt with much harder issues than that.

Maybe take a look around at how corrupt politicians face consequences. They don't. At least, not to the degree that we would. The comics were full of that. Steve Rogers walked away after Nixon. The comics, and the show were just being real.

I agree that Bucky didn't get the time that he needed. I think that they could do a "White Wolf" series and have it be more highly anticipated than before.

I just don't understand the idea that Bucky didn't get enough time. I thought he had plenty. Now I think we didn't get enough of the show itself. 6 episodes felt too short and some characters could have been developed more. But again, that may have been a result of Covid.

Points well taken on the comics. Translating comics to the small screen has it's challenges and there are time and relevance considerations to keep in mind. Audiences for comic books are a different demographic than those under the Disney/Marvel MCU.

Let's face it, it's going to be produced with the widest possible audience in mind. It's certainly not going to make some purists happy, and others more conscious of social justice will often feel their causes don't get enough attention. The producers and directors have considerations that maybe we're not privy to. I don't know who sits in the board rooms and decides what the boundaries are, but I'm sure they do wrestle with all of that.
 
I just don't understand the idea that Bucky didn't get enough time. I thought he had plenty. Now I think we didn't get enough of the show itself. 6 episodes felt too short and some characters could have been developed more. But again, that may have been a result of Covid.
my issue with Bucky wasn't that he got shorted for time, it was more that - like Isaiah - they took a shortcut in his redemption
Sam even pointed out that Bucky needed to make amends - he didn't. all he really did was take his burden off his shoulders and give it to Yori -- it's a trope that i really expected them to avoid, but the drove right through it
 
I know it sounds reductionist, but...Covid. It's really that simple. Considering they had to pull a major plot line, and likely some minor ones, I can understand why some might feel it's somewhat incomplete.

That said, they did close out some major plot points and set us up for future shows/movies. I loved the show. Yeah, wish there was more, sure, but I still liked it quite a bit.
again i agree with the covidness of it all (while still acknowledging that any story that goes up on screen is open for commentary)
and both Marvel/Disney have a **** ton of shows lined up and it would probably cause all kinds of logistical issues to back up the whole gamut (much less their subscription plan)

Marvel also has the added burden of doing all this in their 2nd or 3rd most significant transition ever (phase 1 to 2 was probably a bigger gamble and some of their publishing gambles were huge even though the stakes were much lower)
but Phase 4 was always going to be major and now having to do it during a global pandemic is just nuts
 
I think they totally neglected Bucky and his character. The show was about racial issues and immigration issues with a little bit of character growth. The cursing by Sam I could have done without and there was zero need for the entire loan thing for the boat. The last episode felt like an un-needed political statement.

Carly was shot early on and recovered like nothing then shot last episode and died. To be honest the plot seemed more DC than what I’ve become accustomed to from marvel.

It seemed like a show about Sam and the rest were just special guest. I think they would have done better with a separate show about Bucky and his making amends with his past. That deserves way more than they gave it.
This is like watching the Joker and complaining that they spent too much time focusing on his psychosis.

The thing you're overlooking is that for a black man to assume the role of Captain America it's going to be political and very much personal.

And ALL of Marvel is a political statement. From Stark's stance on U.S 's spending on weapon technology to the Sokovia Accords. It's only an unneeded political statement when you don't want to hear about the specific politics in question.
 
my issue with Bucky wasn't that he got shorted for time, it was more that - like Isaiah - they took a shortcut in his redemption
Sam even pointed out that Bucky needed to make amends - he didn't. all he really did was take his burden off his shoulders and give it to Yori -- it's a trope that i really expected them to avoid, but the drove right through it

But he did make the amends. There's only so much Bucky can do. He kills a man's son, then after learning who he is, he has to work up the courage to go to the guy and admit what he did. It's not like Bucky can give the guy his son back. But he can at least offer closure and the truth about how he died.

And Bucky turned in his crossed off list. It's not like we get to see all of that happen. Some things we take on faith that they did get done. Maybe it was a shortcut, but some parts of a journey will inevitably get left out of a story. People will always have differing opinions on what parts should be explored further.

Also, I don't expect that Bucky will be great at making those amends. He's gonna do it the way he knows how. Going from a mind controlled assassin, to a guy who is still finding himself and clearly socially awkward, making amends is no walk in the park for him.
 

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