Falcon and the Winter Soldier - Trailer (2 Viewers)

But he did make the amends. There's only so much Bucky can do. He kills a man's son, then after learning who he is, he has to work up the courage to go to the guy and admit what he did. It's not like Bucky can give the guy his son back. But he can at least offer closure and the truth about how he died.

And Bucky turned in his crossed off list. It's not like we get to see all of that happen. Some things we take on faith that they did get done. Maybe it was a shortcut, but some parts of a journey will inevitably get left out of a story. People will always have differing opinions on what parts should be explored further.

Also, I don't expect that Bucky will be great at making those amends. He's gonna do it the way he knows how. Going from a mind controlled assassin, to a guy who is still finding himself and clearly socially awkward, making amends is no walk in the park for him.
Which is why we need that scene - they ya da da-d the crux of the scene/journey
the point is not that Bucky feels bad about what he’s done - he’s already there
the point is not that Bucky confesses - he’s already doing that
what we needed to hear is what Yori needed
bucky confessing is not making amends
the writers did not complete Bucky’s arc
you seem to have completed it for yourself which is fine, but that’s not text
 
this is what i was talking about earlier when i think the show needed another 2-3 episodes bc only Sam gets a complete arc
none of the things you are saying are actual text (things we see/hear in the story)
i said what sold the scene was Carl's performance and i believe that - i think you are reading things into his performance, but textually we have him saying that no self-respecting black man would ever wear the stars and stripes
then we have Sam help beat the flagsmashers and rescue the GRC (which Isiah has not shown he has any relationship with - he was done dirty by the US govt which is only a part of the GRC and not really connected to his legit grievance)
Sam makes his speech to the senator and cameras which did not seem structurally different than the speech he had already given to Isiah to which Isiah reacted with the 'no self-respecting black man' line
Sam visits Isiah and Isiah gives him the 'i almost bought it' line and the 'you're not Malcolm/Martin' line - even if he was half kidding it still acknowledges that Sam's speech was rhetoric (with the tacit understanding that even with Martin & Malcolm's soaring rhetoric things really haven't gotten much better for african-americans)
then there is the walk through the room tucked away behind capt america's room - showing that Isiah not gets recognition - was that EVER anything Isiah said he wanted? he wanted to not have been experimented on and not to have been in prison when his wife died
there was no text in the show that said this was one step in a process - Isiah played it (believably) like he got validation (again, not what he said he wanted) - and Sharon got WAY more validation + restitution than Isiah got

I agree, except I also remembered that according to the government, Isiah Bradley is dead. And I don't think he's in a place when this show ends that he wants them to know he is alive. Certainly not before he visits the museum. Maybe he comes "back from the dead" in the future, but as you pointed out a few times, that's not in the text yet.

Which is why we need that scene - they ya da da-d the crux of the scene/journey
the point is not that Bucky feels bad about what he’s done - he’s already there
the point is not that Bucky confesses - he’s already doing that
what we needed to hear is what Yori needed
bucky confessing is not making amends
the writers did not complete Bucky’s arc
you seem to have completed it for yourself which is fine, but that’s not text

I thought Bucky's amends were to give Yori a new friend in the female waitress he had a date with in the first episode. She gives Bucky a knowing look through the window in the scene where he sees her and Yori talking in the restaurant. But I could have just wrote that part myself as it wasn't really clear.
 
Which is why we need that scene - they ya da da-d the crux of the scene/journey
the point is not that Bucky feels bad about what he’s done - he’s already there
the point is not that Bucky confesses - he’s already doing that
what we needed to hear is what Yori needed
bucky confessing is not making amends
the writers did not complete Bucky’s arc
you seem to have completed it for yourself which is fine, but that’s not text

I'm not sure why we need to know what Yori needed. This is about Bucky making amends, not about Yori. Confessing is part of Bucky's making amends. It feels like you're projecting how Bucky should make his amends. What exactly is it that Bucky is supposed to do? And how he makes amends might be different than how you would. We all make amends in our own way to some degree.
 
I agree, except I also remembered that according to the government, Isiah Bradley is dead. And I don't think he's in a place when this show ends that he wants them to know he is alive. Certainly not before he visits the museum. Maybe he comes "back from the dead" in the future, but as you pointed out a few times, that's not in the text yet.



I thought Bucky's amends were to give Yori a new friend in the female waitress he had a date with in the first episode. She gives Bucky a knowing look through the window in the scene where he sees her and Yori talking in the restaurant. But I could have just wrote that part myself as it wasn't really clear.

Oof, for some reason I thought she was Yori's daughter. :covri:
 
That is the norm for most of Hollywood and has been since the 1960's

Lying about the Gulf of Tonkin and Nixion will do that
But he did make the amends. There's only so much Bucky can do. He kills a man's son, then after learning who he is, he has to work up the courage to go to the guy and admit what he did. It's not like Bucky can give the guy his son back. But he can at least offer closure and the truth about how he died.

And Bucky turned in his crossed off list. It's not like we get to see all of that happen. Some things we take on faith that they did get done. Maybe it was a shortcut, but some parts of a journey will inevitably get left out of a story. People will always have differing opinions on what parts should be explored further.

Also, I don't expect that Bucky will be great at making those amends. He's gonna do it the way he knows how. Going from a mind controlled assassin, to a guy who is still finding himself and clearly socially awkward, making amends is no walk in the park for him.

Honestly, I think the whole thing would have been better had be gotten Sam's story and Bucky's story told in separate series. I mean, the only thing that linked them was they were both friends with Steve. I'm not sure why they needed to be pushed into the same series. Especially when that series is only 6 episodes long. I think this would be a better series if it was only about Sam and there was a story about Bucky that could have been made that probably focused more on Wakanda and possibly the search for Zemo. Zemo wasn't really necessary to this story and probably would have worked better in a Winter Soldier stand alone series.
 
Lying about the Gulf of Tonkin and Nixion will do that


Honestly, I think the whole thing would have been better had be gotten Sam's story and Bucky's story told in separate series. I mean, the only thing that linked them was they were both friends with Steve. I'm not sure why they needed to be pushed into the same series. Especially when that series is only 6 episodes long. I think this would be a better series if it was only about Sam and there was a story about Bucky that could have been made that probably focused more on Wakanda and possibly the search for Zemo. Zemo wasn't really necessary to this story and probably would have worked better in a Winter Soldier stand alone series.
Agreed. Although it's somewhat understandable. At the end of Endgame Steve gave the shield to Sam. Bucky was there when it happened. They both probably thought Steve was going to give it to Bucky. So this series was about Bucky finding his role along with Sam's journey to making the shield his own.

While I acknowledge Zemo probably wasn't needed, I liked him in the show.

The series probably really needed to be 10-12 episodes to really cover all the bases. 6 was just not sufficient.
 
Lying about the Gulf of Tonkin and Nixion will do that


Honestly, I think the whole thing would have been better had be gotten Sam's story and Bucky's story told in separate series. I mean, the only thing that linked them was they were both friends with Steve. I'm not sure why they needed to be pushed into the same series. Especially when that series is only 6 episodes long. I think this would be a better series if it was only about Sam and there was a story about Bucky that could have been made that probably focused more on Wakanda and possibly the search for Zemo. Zemo wasn't really necessary to this story and probably would have worked better in a Winter Soldier stand alone series.

I think that like WandaVision, FaWS is best told through the lens of two characters. Wandavision is the love story. FaWS is the bro action comedy of unlikely partners that actually work well together. Tango & Cash, Lethal Weapon, 48 hours...Another 48 hours, Men in Black, Hobbs & Shaw, Rush Hour, Bad Boys, and my personal favorite...Hot Fuzz. I don't think that was the problem. I think the issues with the season was from having to alter the storyline. And ultimately, I get why they did it and don't think it ruins anything going forward because...

I think that unlike WandaVision, FaWS is meant to have multiple seasons.
There's no reason that Captain America and The Winter Soldier season 2 (or is it season 1) doesn't end as Captain America and the White Wolf
In other words, I think we can see a lot more of Buddy in season 2 growing into a different person. After all, they're still calling him the Winter Soldier. Perhaps his transformation isn't done yet, perhaps it's just starting.
 
I think that like Wandavision, FaWS is best told through the lens of two characters. Wandavision is the love story. FaWS is the bro action comedy of unlikely partners that actually work well together. Tango & Cash, Lethal Weapon, 48 hours...Another 48 hours, Men in Black, Hobbs & Shaw, Rush Hour, Bad Boys, and my personal favorite...Hot Fuzz. I don't that was the problem. I think the issues with the season was from having to alter the storyline. And ultimately, I get why they did it and don't think it ruins anything going forward because...

I think that unlike WandaVision, FaWS is meant to have multiple seasons.
There's no reason that Captain America and The Winter Soldier season 2 (or is it season 1) doesn't end as Captain America and the White Wolf
In other words, I think we can see a lot more of Buddy in season 2 growing into a different person. After all, they're still calling him the Winter Soldier. Perhaps his transformation isn't done yet, perhaps it's just starting.
For sure, it's just starting. Maybe they intentionally left some developmental stuff open to be dealt with in future series.
 
I think that like WandaVision, FaWS is best told through the lens of two characters. Wandavision is the love story. FaWS is the bro action comedy of unlikely partners that actually work well together. Tango & Cash, Lethal Weapon, 48 hours...Another 48 hours, Men in Black, Hobbs & Shaw, Rush Hour, Bad Boys, and my personal favorite...Hot Fuzz. I don't think that was the problem. I think the issues with the season was from having to alter the storyline. And ultimately, I get why they did it and don't think it ruins anything going forward because...

I think that unlike WandaVision, FaWS is meant to have multiple seasons.
There's no reason that Captain America and The Winter Soldier season 2 (or is it season 1) doesn't end as Captain America and the White Wolf
In other words, I think we can see a lot more of Buddy in season 2 growing into a different person. After all, they're still calling him the Winter Soldier. Perhaps his transformation isn't done yet, perhaps it's just starting.

It's possible that it is all about having further seasons and that's why the story lines don't feel complete. But, honestly, I just didn't buy the friendship between Sam and Bucky. It just seemed forced and with no real foundation other than both having a prior bromance with Steve Rogers.

I also have the say that the implication in Avengers: Infinity War was that Bucky's time in Wakanda healed him of his issues with having been the Winter Soldier. It just seemed odd to have him starting all this stuff of dealing with it now when it seemed that he was at peace with it when he is called to action in Infinity War.
 
It's possible that it is all about having further seasons and that's why the story lines don't feel complete. But, honestly, I just didn't buy the friendship between Sam and Bucky. It just seemed forced and with no real foundation other than both having a prior bromance with Steve Rogers.

I also have the say that the implication in Avengers: Infinity War was that Bucky's time in Wakanda healed him of his issues with having been the Winter Soldier. It just seemed odd to have him starting all this stuff of dealing with it now when it seemed that he was at peace with it when he is called to action in Infinity War.
Yeah, I would say that while he might have found peace at Wakanda, re-integrating into the wider society is something different, and finding peace doesn't mean that his past has been resolved. That's a long, complicated process.
 
It's possible that it is all about having further seasons and that's why the story lines don't feel complete. But, honestly, I just didn't buy the friendship between Sam and Bucky. It just seemed forced and with no real foundation other than both having a prior bromance with Steve Rogers.

I also have the say that the implication in Avengers: Infinity War was that Bucky's time in Wakanda healed him of his issues with having been the Winter Soldier. It just seemed odd to have him starting all this stuff of dealing with it now when it seemed that he was at peace with it when he is called to action in Infinity War.
the meta of phase 4 - other than coming to terms with/consequences of super powers - is 'what are the offspring of the Avengers?'
Ironman begets all sorts of 'iron' heroes, Wanda + Vision creates offspring which will be part of New Avengers, there will be be a new iteration of Thor, et al
Sam & Bucky are offspring of Cap - that seems to be enough
 
It's possible that it is all about having further seasons and that's why the story lines don't feel complete. But, honestly, I just didn't buy the friendship between Sam and Bucky. It just seemed forced and with no real foundation other than both having a prior bromance with Steve Rogers.

I don't think you're wrong. That is EXACTLY what's going on. I don't think I would call what they have a friendship in the beginning either except for the common goal of 'doing what Steve would have done if he was still here' and disliking the new guy because he doesn't get what Steve was all about. For some different reasons, I think both of them see this guy as a fraud. Bucky knew Steve, long before he was Captain America. Sam was the closest person to Steve as Captain America. In both cases, the other person is the only person in the world that really understands this loss. That's the reason they are drawn to each other. How could they not try to work with each other? Steve, though he didn't understand what it would mean for Sam to take on the mantle (different discussion) would know that Sam would need Bucky's help and would want Bucky to help him. Steve also probably thought that Sam, someone that he considered a good friend, would also be the best person to be there for Bucky, someone else who comes from a different time period and could have trouble adjusting to the world outside the confines of Wakanda.

I also have the say that the implication in Avengers: Infinity War was that Bucky's time in Wakanda healed him of his issues with having been the Winter Soldier. It just seemed odd to have him starting all this stuff of dealing with it now when it seemed that he was at peace with it when he is called to action in Infinity War.

I've never been to Wakanda, but I'd imagine it's different than being in the rest of the world. Fighting is something we know he can do, so being called to action in Infinity War would not be hard. Finding your identity again in a real world setting has to be hard. He was the Winter Soldier for what 6 decades? (Forgive me I don't know canon) And the last time he was himself he was a basically a kid who joined the Army to fight Nazis. Not being the Winter Soldier is one thing. Being deprogrammed is one thing. Unless they replaced that programming with another (of course Shuri wouldn't have done that), that's all deprogramming does. He doesn't come back having an identity, friends and family, enjoying the NFL (non-existent) and podcasts. There's a void there. His identity, no one's identity for that matter, should be what they are not, i.e., not the Winter Soldier or not a Doctor or not a great swimmer, but who they are.

He's finally come to grips that he's not the Winter Soldier and trusts that those words won't reactivate something in him. He cares about the damage that was done by the Winter Soldier. I think by the end of the season, he's not just looking for ways to make himself feel better about what the Winter Soldier did, but how to make amends for the people affected by the Winter Soldier, in ways only he can do.
 
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