Flint Michigan (1 Viewer)

Joined
Jul 19, 2001
Messages
25,963
Reaction score
68,137
Age
51
Location
GBTR
Offline
Sticky Post
Michiganders Demand Governor

To poison all the children in an historic American city is no small feat. Even international terrorist organizations haven’t figured out yet how to do something on a magnitude like this.

But you did. Your staff and others knew that the water in the Flint River was poison — but you decided that taking over the city and “cutting costs” to “balance the budget” was more important than the people’s health (not to mention their democratic rights to elect their own leaders). So you cut off the clean, fresh glacial lake water of Lake Huron that the citizens of Flint (including myself) had been drinking for decades and, instead, made them drink water from the industrial cesspool we call the Flint River — a body of “water” where toxins from a dozen General Motors and DuPont factories have been dumped for over a hundred years. And then you decided to put a chemical in this water to “clean” it — which only ended up stripping the lead off of Flint’s aging water pipes, placing that lead in the water and sending it straight into people’s taps.
 

Saint_Ward

Don't be a Jerk.
Staff member
Administrator
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
46,969
Reaction score
40,833
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Offline
Watch the video.

These folks were set up through no fault of their own. They were lied to repeatedly. The people (experts/officials) most able and capable to help were shut out and threatened.

The 'standards' are meaningless with widespread testing irregularities and the politicization of a public agency. By the end it comes out that basically all the EPA findings are suspect, because of lack of control on so many levels.

The Flint water issue mirrored what happened in Washington DC ten years ago, and apparently the changes that were ordered then were blown off. They speculated that this problem exists throughout the US.

So, how much does it cost to refit a building? How much equity do you think a worthless house has as far as getting a homeowners loan? Even that won't help some people, as the legitimate testing has identified pockets of Flint that are getting more than their share of lead because of city pipes.

The parallel to Katrina that I see, is you've got a city of people who are tired, some sickly, with no trust in government, being given the runaround. Having to haul water. Having to cipher out the good information from rumor.

Watch the video.
Obviously I'm doing a bad job conveying my point. I've already established that I think the state and locals are totally to blame for this issue (At least I thought I did... they failed to have corrosion controls and they failed to treat the water properly). We've talked about that weeks ago.

However, all of us need to evaluate our water supply. Even the best standards can have a few of us with potentially unsafe water. So, understanding your pipes, and if you need to use a filter is important. Even using the Detroit Water system, there were homes in Flint likely getting too much lead, at no fault of any government or local government official / worker.

So, I guess to use the Katrina parallel, I wouldn't wait for government to fix things, and I sure would never expect government to change out anyone's pipes any time soon. I'd just start "rebuilding" on my own, as best I could or take some sort of measures to protect myself. For the rest of us, I'd just look at what options you have if you have potential issues.

Since the actual lead is coming from private pipes, unless government is going to have a "we'll fix it for you" program (then, what about everyone else??), they will still be on the edge of failure.

p.s. I haven't had time to watch that video. I do want to.
 
Last edited:

JimEverett

More than 15K posts served!
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Messages
24,979
Reaction score
7,834
Offline
How do you know it was pipes in houses that leached lead? Or, that city pipes supplying water did not leach lead?
 

Saint_Ward

Don't be a Jerk.
Staff member
Administrator
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
46,969
Reaction score
40,833
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Offline
How do you know it was pipes in houses that leached lead? Or, that city pipes supplying water did not leach lead?
That's possible. I'm not familiar with the city piping. (EDIT.. Ok, I wasn't aware of the service lines being straight up lead prior to 1930's.. so yes, local governments are responsible for that, sadly. .it will take forever to get them all replaced. Again, why corrosion control is so important)

However, it's typically homes, since plumbers like the ease of using lead solder joints, and it was common practice before 1981.

CDC - Corrosion of Pipes - Engineering Fact Sheet - Community Water Fluoridation - Oral Health

Lead and copper in drinking water

Lead and copper are rarely detected in most drinking water supplies. However, these metals are a concern to consumers. Because some household plumbing fixtures may contain lead or copper, corrosive waters may leach (pick up) lead and copper from household plumbing pipes after entering a home. This is a greater issue for older houses (i.e., houses built before 1981, if the plumbing system has not been replaced) than for newer houses. The most common reason for water utilities to add corrosion inhibitors is to avoid lead and copper corrosion with older homes, and the second most common reason is to minimize corrosion of pipes in the distribution system.

When waters are naturally corrosive, many substances have a tendency to dissolve in water. Because of this tendency, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has issued a Lead and Copper Rule that requires all water systems to periodically monitor a set number of samples for lead and copper levels at different locations. This is based on population size and previous tests of lead and copper content. If a certain percentage of the samples exceeds the "action level," the utility system must take corrective actions to control the potential for corrosion in the water system. This often involves the addition of corrosion inhibitors.

Water properties influencing corrosion

Many water quality factors affect corrosion of pipes used in water distribution, including the chemistry and characteristics of the water (e.g., pH, alkalinity, biology), salts and chemicals that are dissolved in the water, and the physical properties of the water (e.g., temperature, gases, solid particles). The tendency of water to be corrosive is controlled principally by monitoring or adjusting the pH, buffer intensity, alkalinity, and concentrations of calcium, magnesium, phosphates, and silicates in the water. Actions by a water system to address these factors can lead to reduced corrosion by reducing the potential for the metal surface to be under the influence of an electrochemical potential.

Waters differ in their resistance to changes in their chemistry. All waters contain divalent metals such as calcium and magnesium that cause water to have properties characterized as hardness and softness. If a water is "hard," it is less likely to "leach" metals from plumbing pipes but often leaves a deposit on the inside of the pipe, while if a water is "soft" it has less of a tendency to leave deposits on the inside of plumbing pipes. If a water is soft, then it has low hardness. Some people in communities with hard water will use water softeners. Water systems adjust the hardness and softness of water because of these tendencies and also for taste considerations.

Alkalinity is a characteristic of water related to hardness. Waters with low hardness, or alkalinity (less than 50 mg/L as calcium carbonate), are more susceptible to the factors affecting corrosion; such systems will typically use additives that can prevent corrosion (corrosion inhibitors) to comply with federal and state regulations.

Corrosion inhibitors

Chemical additives used for corrosion control include phosphates, silicates, and those affecting the carbonate system equilibrium (amount of carbonate in the system), such as calcium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, sodium bicarbonate, and sodium carbonate. Corrosion inhibitors are commonly used to address the corrosion influence of acidic water treatment additives. The most common forms of fluoride for approximately 92% of the drinking water that is fluoridated are fluorosilicates, as either fluorosilicic acid or sodium fluorosilicate. Using fluorosilicates to fluoridate drinking water adds silica, a corrosion inhibitor, to the water and increases the silicates available for stabilizing the pipe surface, which contributes to reduced corrosion.
Looks like They have service connection lines.. lines between city water mains (cast iron) and the house use lead.

Here's How Hard It Will Be to Unpoison Flint's Water | WIRED

Flint crisis reveals vulnerability of all old water pipes - StarTribune.com

Good story here too (above). So, I'm wrong about it being mostly the solder joints, that they actually have lead pipes for pre 1930 homes connecting the home to the water system.

Contaminated Tap Water Could Become More Common Thanks to Failing Infrastructure - The Atlantic

Older story, but more of the cautionary tale for everyone else.
 

SharonT

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
VIP Subscribing Member
VIP Contributor
Joined
Aug 1, 1997
Messages
26,500
Reaction score
5,976
Location
Louisiana
Offline
From WWL's website today:

Test lead in your water at home for free

"About 65 to 80 percent of the water service lines in New Orleans are lead," Katner said. "These were built and put down as far back, as I could tell, as the 1830s."


Dr. Katner is concerned because her testing shows more lead than city testing, and she has not gotten all the records she requested from the city to study why. The Sewerage and Water Board says it will turn over all records requested and wants to see the LSU test results.
So far, Katner's testings showed more than 95 percent of more than 600 samples have lead levels higher than acceptable by California public health goals.
LSUHSC researcher Dr. Adrienne Katner... is the Principal Investigator and Assistant Professor of Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences at the LSU School of Public Health.
In the meantime, here are some things residents can do:

  • Get rid of brass fixtures older than two years
  • Flush water for five minutes, then fill up bottles to use for drinking and cooking
  • Showering and bathing will not cause harm from lead in the water unless it is extremely high
  • Use a clean filter approved for removing lead on your faucet. Change it regularly.
  • Use a bottled water that tests for lead
For free test kits from LSUHSC, call (504) 568-5942 or Lead Study | LSU School Of Public Health


To see what filters are approved for filtering lead: Consumer Resources - NSF International.


:no:
 

Severum

10001110101
Staff member
Administrator
Tech-Admin
Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
10,585
Reaction score
9,117
Age
41
Location
Bellingham, WA
Offline
From WWL's website today:

Test lead in your water at home for free

For free test kits from LSUHSC, call (504) 568-5942 or Lead Study | LSU School Of Public Health


To see what filters are approved for filtering lead: Consumer Resources - NSF International.

:no:
I wonder if the lead service lines in New Orleans are a factor in crime levels and education performance. It would be interesting to see a map of the lines and measured lead water levels compared to a crime and education map.
 
OP
Joined
Jul 19, 2001
Messages
25,963
Reaction score
68,137
Age
51
Location
GBTR
Offline
Seems like Flint voters got the message.

Flint Polling Places Ran Out Of Ballots, Turned Voters Away | ThinkProgress

FLINT, MI — At least one Flint, Michigan polling location ran out of Democratic ballots on Tuesday, forcing voters to either wait over an hour for city clerks to deliver new ones or to leave their phones numbers to be called when more ballots arrived.
Grace Emmanuel Church, one of the busiest polling locations in Flint servicing Precinct 49, ran out of ballots for the presidential primary around 4 p.m., a poll worker confirmed to ThinkProgress. Flint’s NBC25 reported that two other locations across the city ran out of ballots as well.
Loyce Driskell, an elections administrator at Grace Emmanuel, told ThinkProgress that she has worked at the polls for four elections, but this is the first time she has seen a location run out of ballots. A city clerk did not deliver more ballots to the location until around 5:30 p.m., the beginning of the evening rush.
Driskell said she took down the phone numbers for ten people who did not have time to wait. Seven she was later able to reach, and they told her they would come back to vote. Three of the numbers were disconnected or she was not able to reach the voter.
Nothing like being poisoned by your government to get ya interested in making your voice heard.
 

WhoDatPhan78

Definitely not part of the deep state.
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,536
Reaction score
18,543
Offline
I wonder if the lead service lines in New Orleans are a factor in crime levels and education performance. It would be interesting to see a map of the lines and measured lead water levels compared to a crime and education map.
Yea, but even if there was a correlation, it's be a stretch to connect the two causally. Poor areas are likely to have higher levels of lead in their water/pipes and higher crime and poorer education performance.
 

Saint_Ward

Don't be a Jerk.
Staff member
Administrator
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
46,969
Reaction score
40,833
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Offline
The hammer coming down, more to come.

Flint water crisis: 3 charged - CNN.com

The man who supervised Flint's water treatment plant has been charged, along with two state environmental officials, in connection with the Michigan city's water crisis.

Mike Glasgow, a former supervisor at the Flint treatment plant who now serves as the city's utilities administrator, is charged with tampering with evidence and willful neglect of duty as a public officer, according to court records.

The other two are Stephen Busch and Mike Prysby of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality.

Prysby, who still works with the department, stands charged with two counts of misconduct in office, tampering with evidence, conspiracy to tamper with evidence, and two violations of the Safe Water Drinking Act (one a monitoring violation, one a treatment violation). Busch, who is on unpaid administrative leave with the department, faces the same charges minus one of the misconduct in office counts.

Local media outlets report that Prysby is a former district engineer with the the state's Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance, while Busch was a district supervisor in the division.
 
OP
Joined
Jul 19, 2001
Messages
25,963
Reaction score
68,137
Age
51
Location
GBTR
Offline
Maybe if a few governors, mayors, and legislators go down too, it will clean up some of the corruption. It's tiring to watch them walk away time after time.
 

JimEverett

More than 15K posts served!
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Messages
24,979
Reaction score
7,834
Offline
Indications are that the EPA signed off just as the DEQ did - will federal officials be charged?
 
OP
Joined
Jul 19, 2001
Messages
25,963
Reaction score
68,137
Age
51
Location
GBTR
Offline
5,300 U.S. water systems are in violation of lead rules - CNN.com

Eighteen million Americans live in communities where the water systems are in violation of the law. Moreover, the federal agency in charge of making sure those systems are safe not only knows the issues exist, but it's done very little to stop them, according to a new report and information provided to CNN by multiple sources and water experts.

"Imagine a cop sitting, watching people run stop signs, and speed at 90 miles per hour in small communities and still doing absolutely nothing about it -- knowing the people who are violating the law. And doing nothing. That's unfortunately what we have now,"
I can't help but think this is what happens when you cripple protection agencies and let donations rule politics.
 

Saint_Ward

Don't be a Jerk.
Staff member
Administrator
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
46,969
Reaction score
40,833
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Offline
Part of the issue with that data is this...

Violations include failure to properly test water for lead, failure to report contamination to residents, and failure to treat water properly to avoid lead contamination. Yet, states took action in 817 cases; the EPA took action in just 88 cases, according to NRDC's report.
Being used to be audited for many different things, a violation (or the lessor opportunity for improvement) isn't always equal to others. Some of the inability to act would be what you suggeset, the funding issues and politics of regulation/de-regulation. The other part is that I wonder what % of the overall violations are really minor things that didn't cause a real issue. i.e. doing a test wrong one month, but correcting it later and never showing a lead issue.

This is probably the more telling map of action levels and water systems under alter to correct issues.

 
Last edited:

Zardnok

Zardnokalicious!
VIP Subscribing Member
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
May 30, 2004
Messages
6,992
Reaction score
4,756
Location
Bossier City
Offline
Part of the issue with that data is this...



Being used to be audited for many different things, a violation (or the lessor opportunity for improvement) isn't always equal to others. Some of the inability to act would be what you suggeset, the funding issues and politics of regulation/de-regulation. The other part is that I wonder what % of the overall violations are really minor things that didn't cause a real issue. i.e. doing a test wrong one month, but correcting it later and never showing a lead issue.

This is probably the more telling map of action levels and water systems under alter to correct issues.

Think this is the map you were trying to link. Looks like in Louisiana, We have the NW corner and SE corner affected.
 

Attachments

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)



New Orleans Saints Twitter Feed

Headlines

Top Bottom