Flint Michigan (3 Viewers)

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And yet lead level tests were off the charts unsafe? I can't see how government screwed it up so badly.

Off the charts unsafe? Again, sensationalism.

Lead testing results for water sampled by residents | Flint Water Study Updates

They also are doing the initial water that comes out. If there is a lead concern or you have an older home, you should always let the water run a few seconds, at least, to clear out what "settled". My mom always had us do this. Now, I use water filters to help.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/15/this-is-how-toxic-flints-water-really-is/

The 90 percentile numbers from the study were around 27 parts per billion. About 5 times more than the numbers for concern, and about double of what the EPA would issue for older homes to say you really should update your plumbing.

One house was in the 150 ppb, and they really just need new pipes. No way around that.

This whole problem was mostly incompetence in treating their own water.

not greed, etc.

They made a sound fiscal choice originally, but failed miserably at actually making it happen. Just because they failed to have corrosion control chemicals in the water. That's it.

However, as I stated from the get go, and some of you tried to say it wasn't a big issue.. old pipes with lead joints is the real problem. If people are that concerned, they should update their pipes.. don't think this is just a "Flint" problem. If you can't afford that, use filters that can filter out lead. 10% of all homes can be over the EPA standards. And the localities that supply your water can't do much about that.
 
^^ And yes, one sample was stupid high, but They started messing around with how they collect the data, so there is no base to compare it to. Is that real life?
 
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This was excellent. Almost four hours, but really lays out everything clearly. Seeing the questioning, especially near the end, gives me hope that there are still politicians out there who are not paid off by corporations.

After watching, to me, this is not as much about a corrupt governor or inept government agencies or employees, or a money grab by victims or budgets or even them vs us (even though it could be painted any of these ways.)

This whole situation in Flint seems to be a logical conclusion to what happens when public protections are loosened in the name of corporate profit.

The committee members (many older and seem to be invested in public service of their constituencies) questioned the lack of checks and balances, and specifics of the Clean Water Act and the Lead and Copper Rule that allow utilities and companies to have leeway instead of consistent enforcement. Also discussed was how real and necessary information was withheld from the public, and the loss of public trust.

Quite the history lesson, too. :9:
 
If people are that concerned, they should update their pipes.. don't think this is just a "Flint" problem. If you can't afford that, use filters that can filter out lead.

Do you not understand that some people can barely afford to feed themselves? It is a financial impossibility to redo the entire plumbing for the poor residents of Flint, Michigan.

This was an unheard of disaster on American soil......much like the Hurricane Katrina aftermath. These types of events should not happen in America during the 21st century. Curiously, the American poor suffer the most.....
 
Do you not understand that some people can barely afford to feed themselves? It is a financial impossibility to redo the entire plumbing for the poor residents of Flint, Michigan.

This was an unheard of disaster on American soil......much like the Hurricane Katrina aftermath. These types of events should not happen in America during the 21st century. Curiously, the American poor suffer the most.....

If you own a house, you can handle updating pipes.

If you a renter, you have a owner who can update your pipes if it's a serious issue.

The lead is coming from their pipes.

This is not an unheard of disaster, this is a failure to have corrosion controls, mostly due to a lack of experience or decision makers not having any technical experts to guide them.

Don't you dare compare to this the hundreds (1836) of people who died in Katrina.

Again, you don't realize that even the best water standards use a 90 percentile threshold to determine water system safety, but any one person's house could have a serious lead (or other heavy metals) contaminant issue if YOUR home is not properly maintained. Why on earth is that anyone else's responsibility?

Having a water system that doesn't corrode pipes is the City/State's responsibility. But there is only so much they can do. Clearly, the Flint treatment was a failure, but some people are making this out to be a lot more than it was.
 
If you own a house, you can handle updating pipes.

If you a renter, you have a owner who can update your pipes if it's a serious issue.

The lead is coming from their pipes.

This is not an unheard of disaster, this is a failure to have corrosion controls, mostly due to a lack of experience or decision makers not having any technical experts to guide them.

Don't you dare compare to this the hundreds (1836) of people who died in Katrina.

Again, you don't realize that even the best water standards use a 90 percentile threshold to determine water system safety, but any one person's house could have a serious lead (or other heavy metals) contaminant issue if YOUR home is not properly maintained. Why on earth is that anyone else's responsibility?

Having a water system that doesn't corrode pipes is the City/State's responsibility. But there is only so much they can do. Clearly, the Flint treatment was a failure, but some people are making this out to be a lot more than it was.

Watch the video.

These folks were set up through no fault of their own. They were lied to repeatedly. The people (experts/officials) most able and capable to help were shut out and threatened.

The 'standards' are meaningless with widespread testing irregularities and the politicization of a public agency. By the end it comes out that basically all the EPA findings are suspect, because of lack of control on so many levels.

The Flint water issue mirrored what happened in Washington DC ten years ago, and apparently the changes that were ordered then were blown off. They speculated that this problem exists throughout the US.

So, how much does it cost to refit a building? How much equity do you think a worthless house has as far as getting a homeowners loan? Even that won't help some people, as the legitimate testing has identified pockets of Flint that are getting more than their share of lead because of city pipes.

The parallel to Katrina that I see, is you've got a city of people who are tired, some sickly, with no trust in government, being given the runaround. Having to haul water. Having to cipher out the good information from rumor.

Watch the video.
 
Watch the video.

These folks were set up through no fault of their own. They were lied to repeatedly. The people (experts/officials) most able and capable to help were shut out and threatened.

The 'standards' are meaningless with widespread testing irregularities and the politicization of a public agency. By the end it comes out that basically all the EPA findings are suspect, because of lack of control on so many levels.

The Flint water issue mirrored what happened in Washington DC ten years ago, and apparently the changes that were ordered then were blown off. They speculated that this problem exists throughout the US.

So, how much does it cost to refit a building? How much equity do you think a worthless house has as far as getting a homeowners loan? Even that won't help some people, as the legitimate testing has identified pockets of Flint that are getting more than their share of lead because of city pipes.

The parallel to Katrina that I see, is you've got a city of people who are tired, some sickly, with no trust in government, being given the runaround. Having to haul water. Having to cipher out the good information from rumor.

Watch the video.

Obviously I'm doing a bad job conveying my point. I've already established that I think the state and locals are totally to blame for this issue (At least I thought I did... they failed to have corrosion controls and they failed to treat the water properly). We've talked about that weeks ago.

However, all of us need to evaluate our water supply. Even the best standards can have a few of us with potentially unsafe water. So, understanding your pipes, and if you need to use a filter is important. Even using the Detroit Water system, there were homes in Flint likely getting too much lead, at no fault of any government or local government official / worker.

So, I guess to use the Katrina parallel, I wouldn't wait for government to fix things, and I sure would never expect government to change out anyone's pipes any time soon. I'd just start "rebuilding" on my own, as best I could or take some sort of measures to protect myself. For the rest of us, I'd just look at what options you have if you have potential issues.

Since the actual lead is coming from private pipes, unless government is going to have a "we'll fix it for you" program (then, what about everyone else??), they will still be on the edge of failure.

p.s. I haven't had time to watch that video. I do want to.
 
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How do you know it was pipes in houses that leached lead? Or, that city pipes supplying water did not leach lead?
 
How do you know it was pipes in houses that leached lead? Or, that city pipes supplying water did not leach lead?

That's possible. I'm not familiar with the city piping. (EDIT.. Ok, I wasn't aware of the service lines being straight up lead prior to 1930's.. so yes, local governments are responsible for that, sadly. .it will take forever to get them all replaced. Again, why corrosion control is so important)

However, it's typically homes, since plumbers like the ease of using lead solder joints, and it was common practice before 1981.

CDC - Corrosion of Pipes - Engineering Fact Sheet - Community Water Fluoridation - Oral Health

Lead and copper in drinking water

Lead and copper are rarely detected in most drinking water supplies. However, these metals are a concern to consumers. Because some household plumbing fixtures may contain lead or copper, corrosive waters may leach (pick up) lead and copper from household plumbing pipes after entering a home. This is a greater issue for older houses (i.e., houses built before 1981, if the plumbing system has not been replaced) than for newer houses. The most common reason for water utilities to add corrosion inhibitors is to avoid lead and copper corrosion with older homes, and the second most common reason is to minimize corrosion of pipes in the distribution system.

When waters are naturally corrosive, many substances have a tendency to dissolve in water. Because of this tendency, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has issued a Lead and Copper Rule that requires all water systems to periodically monitor a set number of samples for lead and copper levels at different locations. This is based on population size and previous tests of lead and copper content. If a certain percentage of the samples exceeds the "action level," the utility system must take corrective actions to control the potential for corrosion in the water system. This often involves the addition of corrosion inhibitors.

Water properties influencing corrosion

Many water quality factors affect corrosion of pipes used in water distribution, including the chemistry and characteristics of the water (e.g., pH, alkalinity, biology), salts and chemicals that are dissolved in the water, and the physical properties of the water (e.g., temperature, gases, solid particles). The tendency of water to be corrosive is controlled principally by monitoring or adjusting the pH, buffer intensity, alkalinity, and concentrations of calcium, magnesium, phosphates, and silicates in the water. Actions by a water system to address these factors can lead to reduced corrosion by reducing the potential for the metal surface to be under the influence of an electrochemical potential.

Waters differ in their resistance to changes in their chemistry. All waters contain divalent metals such as calcium and magnesium that cause water to have properties characterized as hardness and softness. If a water is "hard," it is less likely to "leach" metals from plumbing pipes but often leaves a deposit on the inside of the pipe, while if a water is "soft" it has less of a tendency to leave deposits on the inside of plumbing pipes. If a water is soft, then it has low hardness. Some people in communities with hard water will use water softeners. Water systems adjust the hardness and softness of water because of these tendencies and also for taste considerations.

Alkalinity is a characteristic of water related to hardness. Waters with low hardness, or alkalinity (less than 50 mg/L as calcium carbonate), are more susceptible to the factors affecting corrosion; such systems will typically use additives that can prevent corrosion (corrosion inhibitors) to comply with federal and state regulations.

Corrosion inhibitors

Chemical additives used for corrosion control include phosphates, silicates, and those affecting the carbonate system equilibrium (amount of carbonate in the system), such as calcium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, sodium bicarbonate, and sodium carbonate. Corrosion inhibitors are commonly used to address the corrosion influence of acidic water treatment additives. The most common forms of fluoride for approximately 92% of the drinking water that is fluoridated are fluorosilicates, as either fluorosilicic acid or sodium fluorosilicate. Using fluorosilicates to fluoridate drinking water adds silica, a corrosion inhibitor, to the water and increases the silicates available for stabilizing the pipe surface, which contributes to reduced corrosion.

Looks like They have service connection lines.. lines between city water mains (cast iron) and the house use lead.

Here's How Hard It Will Be to Unpoison Flint's Water | WIRED

Flint crisis reveals vulnerability of all old water pipes - StarTribune.com

Good story here too (above). So, I'm wrong about it being mostly the solder joints, that they actually have lead pipes for pre 1930 homes connecting the home to the water system.

Contaminated Tap Water Could Become More Common Thanks to Failing Infrastructure - The Atlantic

Older story, but more of the cautionary tale for everyone else.
 
From WWL's website today:

Test lead in your water at home for free

"About 65 to 80 percent of the water service lines in New Orleans are lead," Katner said. "These were built and put down as far back, as I could tell, as the 1830s."


Dr. Katner is concerned because her testing shows more lead than city testing, and she has not gotten all the records she requested from the city to study why. The Sewerage and Water Board says it will turn over all records requested and wants to see the LSU test results.

So far, Katner's testings showed more than 95 percent of more than 600 samples have lead levels higher than acceptable by California public health goals.

LSUHSC researcher Dr. Adrienne Katner... is the Principal Investigator and Assistant Professor of Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences at the LSU School of Public Health.
In the meantime, here are some things residents can do:

  • Get rid of brass fixtures older than two years
  • Flush water for five minutes, then fill up bottles to use for drinking and cooking
  • Showering and bathing will not cause harm from lead in the water unless it is extremely high
  • Use a clean filter approved for removing lead on your faucet. Change it regularly.
  • Use a bottled water that tests for lead
For free test kits from LSUHSC, call (504) 568-5942 or Lead Study | LSU School Of Public Health


To see what filters are approved for filtering lead: Consumer Resources - NSF International.


:no:
 
From WWL's website today:

Test lead in your water at home for free

For free test kits from LSUHSC, call (504) 568-5942 or Lead Study | LSU School Of Public Health


To see what filters are approved for filtering lead: Consumer Resources - NSF International.

:no:

I wonder if the lead service lines in New Orleans are a factor in crime levels and education performance. It would be interesting to see a map of the lines and measured lead water levels compared to a crime and education map.
 
Seems like Flint voters got the message.

Flint Polling Places Ran Out Of Ballots, Turned Voters Away | ThinkProgress

FLINT, MI &#8212; At least one Flint, Michigan polling location ran out of Democratic ballots on Tuesday, forcing voters to either wait over an hour for city clerks to deliver new ones or to leave their phones numbers to be called when more ballots arrived.
Grace Emmanuel Church, one of the busiest polling locations in Flint servicing Precinct 49, ran out of ballots for the presidential primary around 4 p.m., a poll worker confirmed to ThinkProgress. Flint&#8217;s NBC25 reported that two other locations across the city ran out of ballots as well.
Loyce Driskell, an elections administrator at Grace Emmanuel, told ThinkProgress that she has worked at the polls for four elections, but this is the first time she has seen a location run out of ballots. A city clerk did not deliver more ballots to the location until around 5:30 p.m., the beginning of the evening rush.
Driskell said she took down the phone numbers for ten people who did not have time to wait. Seven she was later able to reach, and they told her they would come back to vote. Three of the numbers were disconnected or she was not able to reach the voter.

Nothing like being poisoned by your government to get ya interested in making your voice heard.
 
I wonder if the lead service lines in New Orleans are a factor in crime levels and education performance. It would be interesting to see a map of the lines and measured lead water levels compared to a crime and education map.

Yea, but even if there was a correlation, it's be a stretch to connect the two causally. Poor areas are likely to have higher levels of lead in their water/pipes and higher crime and poorer education performance.
 

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