Fred Thomas?? (1 Viewer)

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Does anyone else think that Fred Thomas is washed up? That guy couldn't stick anyone last week, and I'm just glad he wasn't playing Sunday. :_rofl:
 

bclemms

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Does anyone else think that Fred Thomas is washed up? That guy couldn't stick anyone last week, and I'm just glad he wasn't playing Sunday. :_rofl:
I think it had more to do with a safety blowing the coverage on one play then Chad Johnson beating him on a scramble drill in another. Amazing how good our corners look when we play Michael Vick and Roddy White instead of Chad Johnson and Carson Palmer.
 

BoNcHiE

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I think it had more to do with a safety blowing the coverage on one play then Chad Johnson beating him on a scramble drill in another. Amazing how good our corners look when we play Michael Vick and Roddy White instead of Chad Johnson and Carson Palmer.
Thomas has been getting killed all year long. (well except the first Atlanta game).

I don't see that as a valid excuse.
 

bclemms

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BTW, your a week late and instead of bashing one player that didn't play the Monday after a big win, why don't you compliment Jason Craft on his play. Lord knows a lot of people wanted to cut him after the Steelers game so give him his dues when he plays good.
 

Loose Cannon

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Does anyone else think that Fred Thomas is washed up? That guy couldn't stick anyone last week, and I'm just glad he wasn't playing Sunday. :_rofl:
This has been beaten to death already. You can use the "SEARCH" feature and find at least 50 threads on the subject.

Freddy had one "bad" game against the Bengals, as any corner would when expected to cover Chad Johnson one-on-one with no safety help, and giving Palmer 8-10 seconds to throw. No cornerback can stay with an elite WR for 10 seconds. It just doesn't happen. Bullocks also blew his assignment on both deep balls.

Freddy is fine. If we had anything resembling a pass rush against the Bengals this would not even be a discussion.

I guess even in a magical season for the Saints someone has to be scapegoated
 

BoNcHiE

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This has been beaten to death already. You can use the "SEARCH" feature and find at least 50 threads on the subject.

Freddy had one "bad" game against the Bengals, as any corner would when expected to cover Chad Johnson one-on-one with no safety help, and giving Palmer 8-10 seconds to throw. No cornerback can stay with an elite WR for 10 seconds. It just doesn't happen. Bullocks also blew his assignment on both deep balls.

Freddy is fine. If we had anything resembling a pass rush against the Bengals this would not even be a discussion.

I guess even in a magical season for the Saints someone has to be scapegoated
Fred isn't a scapegoat. Hes hurt. He has a nagging injury. He is playing terribly. Thomas has not had 1 bad game. Hes been terrible every game since the first Falcons game (and he was bad in the 1st two before that).

I think its mostly the injury limiting his speed. Without it he is incapable of playing man to man. I don't question his mental skills as a CB but he is def. lacking the athletic ability to play the position. Its probably time for him to hang it up.
 

bclemms

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Thomas has been getting killed all year long. (well except the first Atlanta game).

I don't see that as a valid excuse.

You keep saying this. What other game did he get killed in? Was it the one big pass to Galloway that he gave up when Bullocks bit on the play action against Tampa?

Good god, there are coverage responsibilities that every corner has. When you are in a cover 2 then that means you contain the WR for about 15-20 yards from the line of scrimmage and pass him off to the safety. At this point THE CORNERS RESPONSIBILITY CHANGES, he is now supposed to either pick up a TE or RB in front of him while the safety has deep coverage on the WR. This is the coverage we were in on Galloway's long TD and on the first long TD by Johnson. Blaming Thomas would be like blaming Will Smith for that.

Think about some of the corners we have played this year and what our WR's have done to them. Rhonde Barber- owned, Deangelo Hall- owned, Chris McCallister- owned, Al Harris- owned, Charles Woodson- owned, Chris Gamble- owned.

I think everyone expects a Champ Bailey type performance out of MM and Fred Thomas every week when in reality the corner position is no longer a position that can be shut down. The rules are very much in the WR's favor and the cb's have been getting toasted league wide. CB's will get beat, Fred Thomas is no different but he has been beat less than many of the "elite" corners around the league.
 

Loose Cannon

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Fred isn't a scapegoat. Hes hurt. He has a nagging injury. He is playing terribly. Thomas has not had 1 bad game. Hes been terrible every game since the first Falcons game (and he was bad in the 1st two before that).

I think its mostly the injury limiting his speed. Without it he is incapable of playing man to man. I don't question his mental skills as a CB but he is def. lacking the athletic ability to play the position. Its probably time for him to hang it up.
I disagree (but you already know that :ezbill: ). I think he's played very well for the majority of the year.

If he's hurt, he needs to get healthy, but he's far better than Craft or anything else we have to replace him.
 

BoNcHiE

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You keep saying this. What other game did he get killed in? Was it the one big pass to Galloway that he gave up when Bullocks bit on the play action against Tampa?

Good god, there are coverage responsibilities that every corner has. When you are in a cover 2 then that means you contain the WR for about 15-20 yards from the line of scrimmage and pass him off to the safety. At this point THE CORNERS RESPONSIBILITY CHANGES, he is now supposed to either pick up a TE or RB in front of him while the safety has deep coverage on the WR. This is the coverage we were in on Galloway's long TD and on the first long TD by Johnson. Blaming Thomas would be like blaming Will Smith for that.

Think about some of the corners we have played this year and what our WR's have done to them. Rhonde Barber- owned, Deangelo Hall- owned, Chris McCallister- owned, Al Harris- owned, Charles Woodson- owned, Chris Gamble- owned.

I think everyone expects a Champ Bailey type performance out of MM and Fred Thomas every week when in reality the corner position is no longer a position that can be shut down. The rules are very much in the WR's favor and the cb's have been getting toasted league wide. CB's will get beat, Fred Thomas is no different but he has been beat less than many of the "elite" corners around the league.
He was toasted in the Green Bay game by Jennings. Toasted in the browns game (75 yard TD was called back because of a tacky holding call that everyone on this board admitted we got lucky on). He gave up 10 passes to Carolina. He was beat bad by Joey Galloway both times we played the bucs this year. McNabb picked on him all game and he gave up several big pass plays in the 2nd half. Baltimore exclusively passed to his side of the field when we played them. McNair passed on him the entire time. He didn't play the Pittsburgh game. He was killed in the Bengals game.

There ya go. He has been consistently beat all year long. Does the Safety deserve some blame. Probably. But its clear he is hurt and does not have the Athletic ability to play the position well at this point in time.

I don't really care what other CB's are getting burnt this year. I don't need to make excuses for why a player is bad. I fell into that with brooks for far to long. What I see is what I judge.
 

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No, I do not
Neither do I. But its obvious hes hurting. I hope hes back next year. I don't think we'll find a better Nickelback if we pick up a new number 1 or 2.
 

SaintJ

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We need to step back a little on this whole secondary thing.

We're sixth in the NFL in passing YPG allowed, sixth in sacks (with decent, but not true marquee, pass rushers), ninth in % completed against and 12th in opponents' yards per attempt. The 20-5 TD/INT ratio kills us in the rating system, but our pass defense has been pretty good most of the year.

Favre got a pile of yards on us, and we had sort of a collective team sag against Pittsburgh and Cincinnati; otherwise, we've played good pass defense and done a good job of getting off the field: we're a respectable 18th in opponents' third down conversion %, but 10th in total first downs and eighth in passing first downs. Strikes me that we either give up a TD drive or get a three- or five-and-out, and not dying a slow death on long drives like we used to. Any way you want to slice it, the pass defense, despite the injuries and lack of spectacular athletes for pass rushing in the front seven, has been pretty good this season.

Praise and honors for the defensive staff and to the players for playing like a TEAM. Let's focus on the fact that despite a -9 turnover number, we're right now the no. 2 seed in the NFC and playing like it a lot of weeks.
 

bclemms

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Fred isn't a scapegoat. Hes hurt. He has a nagging injury. He is playing terribly. Thomas has not had 1 bad game. Hes been terrible every game since the first Falcons game (and he was bad in the 1st two before that).

I think its mostly the injury limiting his speed. Without it he is incapable of playing man to man. I don't question his mental skills as a CB but he is def. lacking the athletic ability to play the position. Its probably time for him to hang it up.
The Cleveland game Charlie Frye completed 6 passes for 60 yards to his WR's.

The Green Bay game Farve and Driver put up nice numbers, most of which came against Mike Mckenzie. Greg Jennings also had a nice 22 yard TD catch against MM. Thomas all but shut down his side of the field.

The 1st Atlanta game Thomas played outstanding. MM had a good game but did get beat deep by Ashley Lelie.

Week 4 Thomas held Steve Smith under 100 yards and much of this was in man coverage and Smith lined up opposite Thomas nearly the entire game.

Week 5 Galloway had a nice TD in the back of the endzone against Thomas early in the game but the coverage was good. Thank god Galloway dropped the pass at the end of the game when he was running wide open after beating MM or we would have lost that game. Thomas played very good that game.

Week 6 The Eagles had the #1 passing attack in the NFL coming into the game and we limited McNabb to 247 yards passing, season low at that time. Reggie Brown had a long play when he got between Thomas and Bullocks in a zone defense and he broke the tackles of our entire freaking defense to take it to the house. After that Thomas shut down his side of the field and our corners only allowed 7 catches for 81 yards to the WR's.

Week 7 we had a bye

Week 8 Thomas gave up a few 5-10 yard passes in front of him but again, we held the WR's of the Ravens to 9 catches for 91 yards.

Week 9 Galloway got his big play on a safety biting against Thomas. Other than that Tampa completed 4 passes to their WR's the entire game.

Week 10 Ok, our secondary looked bad and Rothlisburger torched us but Thomas didn't even play. Our secondary had the worst game of the season.

Week 11: The Bengals game. Yes Carson Palmer and Chad Johnson made our secondary look bad. Again, Thomas was responsible for one of the big plays and the 2 yard slant by Chad Johnson. The 2 yard slant was a perfectly thrown ball in man coverage and even though Thomas was all over CJ it is impossible to beat the perfect throw on a 2 yard slant.

Week 12: We played the Falcons and looked good doing it Craft and MM did a good job limiting Vick under 100 yards passing. Thomas didn't play but again, we were playing Michael Vick.


So exactly what game was it that Thomas was getting killed?
 

LSSpam

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He was toasted in the Green Bay game by Jennings.
That was McKenzie

Toasted in the browns game (75 yard TD was called back because of a tacky holding call that everyone on this board admitted we got lucky on).
Not sure who was covering Edwards that play but Edwards and Cleveland did absoloutely nothing else through the air after that (except some to Winslow over Roman Harper)

He gave up 10 passes to Carolina.
You mean when he held Steve Smith to 87 yards despite Delhomme repeatedly forcing the ball into Smith? One of Smiths lowest yardage totals of the season.

McNabb picked on him all game and he gave up several big pass plays in the 2nd half. Baltimore exclusively passed to his side of the field when we played them.
Both statements exaggerations. Baltimore ran slants on both sides of the field and he only gave up 1 big play to the Eagles, the McNabb to Reggie Brown (that wouldn't have been so big if all 3 players didn't miss the tackle. The missed tackle bothered me more then the reception). The Eagles only had 3 big plays total anyways, 1 to Reggie Brown, 1 to LJ Smith, and then the reverse to Reggie Brown.


What I see is what I judge.
Watch more
 

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Thank god Galloway dropped the pass at the end of the game when he was running wide open after beating MM or we would have lost that game.
Modest correction. The play I "believe" you're refering to was the long pass to Galloway that got called back because of a penalty. He beat Craft on that play because some Bucs WR (I forget who, Ike Hillard I want to say) basically set a basketball pick on Craft and knocked him down (which drew the penalty).
 

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We need to step back a little on this whole secondary thing.

We're sixth in the NFL in passing YPG allowed, sixth in sacks (with decent, but not true marquee, pass rushers), ninth in % completed against and 12th in opponents' yards per attempt. The 20-5 TD/INT ratio kills us in the rating system, but our pass defense has been pretty good most of the year.

Favre got a pile of yards on us, and we had sort of a collective team sag against Pittsburgh and Cincinnati; otherwise, we've played good pass defense and done a good job of getting off the field: we're a respectable 18th in opponents' third down conversion %, but 10th in total first downs and eighth in passing first downs. Strikes me that we either give up a TD drive or get a three- or five-and-out, and not dying a slow death on long drives like we used to. Any way you want to slice it, the pass defense, despite the injuries and lack of spectacular athletes for pass rushing in the front seven, has been pretty good this season.

Praise and honors for the defensive staff and to the players for playing like a TEAM. Let's focus on the fact that despite a -9 turnover number, we're right now the no. 2 seed in the NFC and playing like it a lot of weeks.

We often play an aggressive Cover-1 defense which doesn't afford much safety help to the CBs. This puts a lot of pressure on our CBs who, I believe, are above-average but not exceptional. They get exposed sometimes.

If Fred Thomas is essentially asked to cover Chad Johnson one-on-one for 4 quarters, chances are he will eventually be exposed. This has less to do with Fred Thomas being Fred Thomas and more to do with Chad Johnson being Chad Johnson. Chad Johnson will get his eventually.

People need to come to terms with this and accept it. It is a problem, I wish we had Champ Bailey, but we don't , so we need to take advantage of good play by the defense (like for 3 quarters vs Cinncy) and try to get them a lead to protect to help them out.
 

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