Ft Worth police officer shoots woman to death inside her home (1 Viewer)

[Madmarsha]

I've been wondering what made the neighbor think a welfare check was needed for Ms. Jefferson. I haven't seen a mention of another person that lived in the house, but the article mentions that Ms. Jefferson was there to look after her sick mother. It also says that the neighbor had first gone to the house when he saw the door open and couldn't find anybody (presumably didn't go far into the house, if at all). So I'm guessing his concern was for the sick mom and maybe didn't know the daughter was there looking after the mom. So now his welfare check call -- to a non-emergency number -- makes more sense.

There is absolutely nothing here to suggest that this officer should have been on such high alert for whatever he thought it was. Was he going to be top cop and shoot a burglar in the act? Through the window? This is bad enough but he could have also shot an 8-year-old boy who is now going to grow up having witnessed this.

It just makes me wonder, how many LEO are there out there who should NOT be carrying a gun.

 

[coldseat]

I am wondering what they mean by "rare"

Just looking at FBI stats, somewhere between 44 and 66 police officers are feloniously killed in the line of duty each year for the past decade or so.

This puts the number of police officers in the US at under 1 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers

The Washington Post is reporting a little under 1,000 people die each yeat by police over the last 4 years. That is estimated to be more like 1200-1300 when including agencies that do not report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...forcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_2018

So assume 1500 killings - probably a couple hundred more than actually happen, but still.


So out of 1 million police, 40-50 are killed in a year.
Out of 320 million people 1500 are killed a year.

Unless I am missing something it seems like police are exponentially more likely to be killed than police are likely to kill - like 10,000 times more likely.

Of course, police are exponentially more likely to kill than the average person, which sort of makes sense given their job. And it has little to do with the notion of "rare" that I am interested in that this piece is using.

What am I misunderstanding here?

That's a flawed metric, because even though we have 320 million people in this country, police certainly do not come in contact with 320 million people. It would be better to compare both numbers to the number of contacts between civilians and police (whatever that number is). As those are the opportunities where either:

a.) a police officer can be killed by a civilian
b.) a civilian can be killed by a police officer.
c.) neither is killed by the other.

 

[JimEverett]

That's a flawed metric, because even though we have 320 million people in this country, police certainly do not come in contact with 320 million people. It would be better to compare both numbers to the number of contacts between civilians and police (whatever that number is). As those are the opportunities where either:

a.) a police officer can be killed by a civilian
b.) a civilian can be killed by a police officer.
c.) neither is killed by the other.

Depending on what we are measuring for, it might be flawed. But with the idea of police being killed as "rare" - I don't see why your suggestion would make it better.
I mean I guess we could also try to cut down the numbers on the side of police as to interactions with violent people? So 40 out of 200,000 police officers who confronted violent people were killed? Not sure how we could measure that, or even your suggestion.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Depending on what we are measuring for, it might be flawed. But with the idea of police being killed as "rare" - I don't see why your suggestion would make it better.
I mean I guess we could also try to cut down the numbers on the side of police as to interactions with violent people? So 40 out of 200,000 police officers who confronted violent people were killed? Not sure how we could measure that, or even your suggestion.

You would base it off of interactions, no?
Traffic stops, 911 calls, et al

 

[wnelson]

as a white, middle class male I don't deal with the police. I, too, am afraid for my life every time I run across the shield. if you cant trust the cops not to kill you, why have police at all?

 

[JimEverett]

You would base it off of interactions, no?
Traffic stops, 911 calls, et al

I don't think so. I mean I am not opposed to seeing what that is like, but it just strikes me as not very helpful. Everyone is under the jurisdiction of some sort of police agency, right?
And when we are talking about the likelihood of being killed by police we don't limit based on other factors in order to come up with a stat on the rarity of being shot by police. For example - it wouldn't strike me as being particularly helpful to know, one way or another, whether this woman in Ft. Worth had ever been arrested before or had been convicted of a violent crime.

Nonetheless, I think it can be helpful for other purposes to try and come up with stats based on what you and Coldseat are talking about.

 

[Jeff Miller]

as a white, middle class male I don't deal with the police. I, too, am afraid for my life every time I run across the shield. if you cant trust the cops not to kill you, why have police at all?

maybe we should stop criminalizing everyday life, and stop using the police to enforce moral behavior and draw their focus back to enforcing violence crime and crimes against property.

We have the police doing too much, and forcing to many laws that should be taken off the books.

 

[FullMonte]

I thought they don't run the siren because they don't want to alert the "perpetrators" that they are on the way so they don't flee and they can still corner them and catch them in the house?

That's probably part of it, too.

 

[Brad Mojo]

Except, the NFL and its players have absolutely nothing to do with public safety. That is to say if one of the NFLPA's members were to run a foul on the field, their actions have no effect on the public. The FOP, on the other hand, has a duty to protect both its members and the public their members serve and they have done a poor job of holding their members accountable when they have acted outside of the law.

I was referring to the NFLPA's defense of their members' spouse and child abuse, but still obviously the FOP is on a whole other level.

 

[wnelson]

maybe we should stop criminalizing everyday life, and stop using the police to enforce moral behavior and draw their focus back to enforcing violence crime and crimes against property.

We have the police doing too much, and forcing to many laws that should be taken off the books.

maybe...and im just spitballing… maybe the police shouldn't shoot first and ask questions later when deciding what and how to cover it up. the guy executed a woman in her home while playing video games with a child. under no circumstance should this officer walk with anything less than 2nd degree murder and conspiracy. we are citizens who pay their salary, not the enemy.

 

[Big_L]

My 0.02

Training. If you look at a lot of these shootings they are done by individuals with a brief time on the force. A lot of police training revolves around shooting an individual and let's be honest, unless the situation has gone to Hell in a hand basket, the duty weapon does not need to be removed from the holster. I have fought with a lot of people over my career and I am pretty sure had I shot one of them, it would be found justified. However, I am not (and was not) afraid to take a punch. I would rather break someone's nose than kill them over petty shirt anyways! I always viewed my firearm as only in case of emergency. Also during training I feel a lot of the material is making out the civilian populace to be the bad guy, kinda like military training when occupying foreign territory. US citizens in CONUS are not subject to ROE, they are subject to the US Constitution and unfortunately some of our officers forget that.

While these incidents seem to happen more frequently, I still am hesitant to say that it is factual that they are happening at a higher pace. With the instant news we now enjoy, I think that what happened in Ft Worth is now instantly transmitted worldwide vs a few years ago when the news mostly stayed in the local area. However, as police officers we have to be better than this. We are entrusted with a great responsibility and we have to live up to that. The US citizen, and non citizen for that fact, deserves as much. I think most officers go above and beyond in their duties, the few that don't, well, they have to pay the price.

 

[Tapxe]

maybe...and im just spitballing… maybe the police shouldn't shoot first and ask questions later when deciding what and how to cover it up. the guy executed a woman in her home while playing video games with a child. under no circumstance should this officer walk with anything less than 2nd degree murder and conspiracy. we are citizens who pay their salary, not the enemy.

How Police Training Contributes to Avoidable Deaths

To save lives, cops must be taught to think beyond the gun belt.

www.theatlantic.com

Fear-based training for police officers is challenged

An instructor of fear-based training is booked more than 200 times a year.

www.startribune.com

Most states neglect ordering police to learn de-escalation tactics to avoid shootings

In 34 states, training decisions are left to local agencies. Most, though, conduct no, or very little, de-escalation training. Chiefs cite cost, lack of staff, and a belief that the training isn't needed.

www.apmreports.org

Whether White did what he had to do remains a question. What's certain is that he did what he was trained to do.

Text version NPR

MARTIN: As a police officer, what do you think you are mainly trained to do?
STOUGHTON: We know that the single largest block of training relates to use of force - an average of just over 120 hours. You can compare that to an average of eight hours of de-escalation and conflict avoidance training in police academies.

I think it's the system as much as the officers. I like to believe despite the numerous threads and my own reporting of them, that the vast majority of officers are very good and proper. There's always going to be some bad actors, but I think the system might be just as much to blame with inadequate training and militarization without enough emphasis on deescalation.

Consider in many states, you have to attend more training and OJT to be a hair stylist than a police officer. Something seems wrong with that and it's a failure for our officers and citizens.

 

[Dago]

I know I sound like a broken record, but again this is an example of our society being sick. There is no respect for the sanctity of human life in our country.
You have a citizen base that, for the most part, has little empathy, no respect for human life, is narcissistic, and motivated by instant gratification

what kind of people from that base are going to gravitate to law enforcement?

I know that is a sweeping generalization and I do believe that the majority of LEOs are trying to do their job well, but realistically that ain't saying a whole lot considering 50.1% is a majority

 

[Cage1]

So out of 1 million police, 40-50 are killed in a year.
Out of 320 million people 1500 are killed a year.

Unless I am missing something it seems like police are exponentially more likely to be killed than police are likely to kill - like 10,000 times more likely.


What am I misunderstanding here?

Well, basic math for one.

 

[JimEverett]

Well, basic math for one.

Not sure what you mean, but if it is what I think it is then you should have quoted the nexxt sentence - where I contradicted myself. Its the latter that is true, of course.

But that still doesn't get at the question. Again, assuming that is what you meant.