Gillette's New "Toxic Masculinity" Ad (1 Viewer)

[kcirdor]

What the Fork! is this shirt. worse than 2 girls 1 cup. i made it through 4 seconds.

So you made it through 8 seconds of the cup?

 

[IntenseSaint]

For the sake of good conversation, let’s just stick with the move to take macho out of man.

I thought Macho Men were gay?

 

[Arathrael]

I guess I just don’t see what about these behaviors the add references is worth protecting or getting so defensive about.

The complaints in general (not just here) seem be that, 1) the ad is insulting all men by suggesting they're bullies who harass women when most men don't do that, and 2) the ad is trying to stop men being men by saying they shouldn't do that.

And it doesn't seem to be typically different people saying those either, it's usually the same people.

Maybe Gillette should run an ad encouraging critical thinking.

 

[zeetes]

So you made it through 8 seconds of the cup?

way longer. that’s hot.

 

[RazorOye]

Well, I guess I don’t see the statements any different. I think my description of feminism is dead on. I’m sorry if you see it as a caricature.

I can tell you, after working alongside and next door to and in the general proximity of feminists - getting along with collegially as well as getting harangued by some - that there is not essential "feminist"

Even feminists don't agree on what 'feminism' is and there are huge, contentious debates about who gets to be one, which group has a claim, territory and in-fighting.

Some of the most intense, antagonistic ideological arguments I've come across have been within what you'd describe as the field of feminism.

And probably the most intense fire I've had to stand in came from a trio of feminists. Actually, probably second most. There was one neo Marxist who did not like my work and discussions about my work with him broke very, very badly. But I stood my ground and had the institution behind me. Thankfully.

Anyway, there is not single 'feminist'

And I think you'd push back on the idea of a single "Saints fan" or "Catholic" or "Conservative" if the version of that idea of those things was designed to be negative, inflammatory, derogatory, etc.

Seeing the individual is often a good first step to empathy.

Maybe we don't get there with someone, but if we go in with these assumptions, there's never really a chance

 

[mt15]

Nah, oye. Nuance and reality have no place for him and others in this thread. We must lump all feminists in one pile and demonize them. Whether for being unattractive or shrill or hairy, they are the enemy and must be destroyed.

At least there is some consistency in their inability to discern nuance. They are unable to view the ad as making a point about some behavior by some men. No, because according to them if you criticize the behavior of one man, by god, you have denigrated them all.

It’s a cartoonish point of view more suited to the playground than to an adult discussion, IMO.

 

[SystemShock]

This has been the feminist position since the 70’s. This ad is just another way to put down the idea of a masculine man. The left has been trying to take Macho out of being a man for as long as I have been alive.

How do you define "macho"?

Funny how genetically someone can be born gay and we are to embrace it, however it is not accepted to be genetically born having machismo from the same group of people.

Machismo is learned behavior.

 

[RazorOye]

Nah, oye. Nuance and reality have no place for him and others in this thread. We must lump all feminists in one pile and demonize them. Whether for being unattractive or shrill or hairy, they are the enemy and must be destroyed.

At least there is some consistency in their inability to discern nuance. They are unable to view the ad as making a point about some behavior by some men. No, because according to them if you criticize the behavior of one man, by god, you have denigrated them all.

It’s a cartoonish point of view more suited to the playground than to an adult discussion, IMO.

it's especially odd in this thread

we're talking about an ad addressing dudes behaving poorly

Dudes: "Hey! We're not all like that!"

then we talk about feminists:

Same Dudes: "Look at all of them all being all the same!"

That doesn't make sense. There's a lot of different types of dudes. There's a lot of different types of women. There's macho guys that are totally cool. There are some that suck. There are feminists that are decidedly uncool. And there are some that suck.

This insistent, indiscriminate categorization makes empathy impossible.

 

[saintmdterps]

I just don’t see this as such an attack or a put down. It seemed to me that was asking that people consider (or reconsider) certain behaviors. It wasn’t attacking people for just being born men.

I guess I just don’t see what about these behaviors the add references is worth protecting or getting so defensive about.

Because with some people if you insult one part of the Man, you insult the entire (and entirety of) Man. It's as though we men were all born perfect with no characteristics in need of change. This is also how some rally to the flag saying "our culture is under assault"; just like the "War on Christmas" or "Blue lives matter" These folks also completely miss the irony of how they call others "snowflake" but cannot handle criticism of their own culture and its mores.

Essentially, humanity is ****** up. Accept that all of us can better ourselves individually and as a whole.

 

[Ambush]

I can tell you, after working alongside and next door to and in the general proximity of feminists - getting along with collegially as well as getting harangued by some - that there is not essential "feminist"

Even feminists don't agree on what 'feminism' is and there are huge, contentious debates about who gets to be one, which group has a claim, territory and in-fighting.

Some of the most intense, antagonistic ideological arguments I've come across have been within what you'd describe as the field of feminism.

And probably the most intense fire I've had to stand in came from a trio of feminists. Actually, probably second most. There was one neo Marxist who did not like my work and discussions about my work with him broke very, very badly. But I stood my ground and had the institution behind me. Thankfully.

Anyway, there is not single 'feminist'

And I think you'd push back on the idea of a single "Saints fan" or "Catholic" or "Conservative" if the version of that idea of those things was designed to be negative, inflammatory, derogatory, etc.

Seeing the individual is often a good first step to empathy.

Maybe we don't get there with someone, but if we go in with these assumptions, there's never really a chance

I get what you are saying 100%. Every classification has its nuances. Though some of the folks on his board only see nuances in the positions they support.

My assessment stands. A group of people, some that have posted in this thread, see masculinity as a negative thing. As you highlighted in your explanation, there are nuances. What I consider masculine is not what was described In the Gillette commercial.

Yes, the dads who stopped the bullying are great dads, but that isn’t masculine. If it were my wife would be masculine and I don’t think anyone would call her masculine.

This screams as a way to put down on men. I also think they are taking a page out of the nike book. Let’s attack big dad white men. (Watch the commercial, not until the last few clips does it show a white man doing anything “positive”.

 

[Ambush]

How do you define "macho"?



Machismo is learned behavior.

How is machoism learned and being afeminate is not learned?

I describe Macho as, Clint Eastwood.

 

[Arathrael]

What I consider masculine is not what was described In the Gillette commercial.

Why would it be? The commercial is saying "hey guys, let's deal with bad behaviour, like harassment, bullying, etc." It's not "Gillette's fully comprehensive guide to masculinity."

This screams as a way to put down on men. I also think they are taking a page out of the nike book. Let’s attack big dad white men.

I describe Macho as, Clint Eastwood.

Or put it this way: what macho things is it, specifically, that Clint Eastwood embodies that the ad attacks?

 

[Ambush]

The ad passive aggressively attacks men as we know them. If it wasn’t an attack ad, why insinuate that what we perceive masculine to be is bad? This is a typical SJW way of opening the door to bashing men.

What I think is Macho? Understand that I am an Italian.

I think Macho is a man who stands as the head of the house hold. Who does not capitulate his values for popularity. Teach his daughters to be ladies and their sons to be respectful men. Put woman on a pedestal and fight like a lion anyone who tries to harm them. Macho is a man whose friends come to him for support and advice in tough times.

Macho is a man who doesn’t just say it’s ok, they kick people in the arse who need it and love those who need it also. Bullying would never happen around a Macho man. ( my biggest beef with this site is the bullying by a handful of posters that goes unchecked because they are the popular crowd. Macho men call people like that to the carpet, despite the popularity by those in charge.

I don’t think you really want my description. But if you are interested, I am open to further the discussion.

 

[SystemShock]

How is machoism learned and being afeminate is not learned?

What?

I describe Macho as, Clint Eastwood.

Clint Eastwood the person, or the characters Clint Eastwood plays?

How about we first define what "machismo" is? And I get that Village People used the word "macho" in a song and it became popular, but machismo is not a synonym of virile.

Edit: I see you post above. That's not what machismo entails.

Besides, machos don't get bent out of shape over a TV commercial for razors.

 

[Arathrael]

The ad passive aggressively attacks men as we know them.

It doesn't. And you know that. Look:

I think Macho is a man who stands as the head of the house hold. Who does not capitulate his values for popularity. Teach his daughters to be ladies and their sons to be respectful men. Put woman on a pedestal and fight like a lion anyone who tries to harm them. Macho is a man whose friends come to him for support and advice in tough times.

Macho is a man who doesn’t just say it’s ok, they kick people in the arse who need it and love those who need it also. Bullying would never happen around a Macho man. ( my biggest beef with this site is the bullying by a handful of posters that goes unchecked because they are the popular crowd. Macho men call people like that to the carpet, despite the popularity by those in charge..

At no point in your description of 'macho' do you include sexual harassment, bullying, discrimination, etc. Which are the things the ad is attacking. And you say your idea of macho includes intervening instead of standing by, which the ad actively encourages.

By your definition of macho, the ad is condemning things that you don't consider macho, while encouraging things you do consider to be macho.

So how on Earth do you reach the conclusion that it's attacking men or masculinity as a whole?