GMOs [Part 1 and 2 - Merged] (1 Viewer)

superchuck500

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My wife has always been far more vigilant about what we eat than I. And with one toddler in the house and another baby on the way, she is moreso than ever. Her latest area of concern is GMOs. She recognizes that GMOs are everywhere in the foods we eat . . . and she isn't on some crazy rampage about it. But her point is that there is legitimate debate about the long-term health implications of GMOs - and some areas, like the EU, have heavily regulated GMOs - and that we should avoid feeding them to our children when it is reasonably possible to control (i.e. when we're eating at home). We have seen, however, that it is difficult to make an informed choice at the store because any GMO labeling is purely voluntary.

Her prerogative is fair enough, I go with it. But I like to make evidence-based decisions in my life and I have done a fair amount of research, looking for objective analysis. This is very difficult because information on the issue is heavily influenced by the special interests. You have to be very careful about the sources you find persuasive - who wrote it and what is their interest?

I think the greater evidence is that GMOs are typically safe - especially the most common (which incorporate genetic material from certain bacteria into agricultural crops to make them produce their own toxins that make them resistant to common pests). Another common method (heavily backed by Monsanto) uses genetic material to make the crops survive application of pesticides - when the unmodified crop would die from the poison. While this method may have yet to prove harmful in studies, I definitely don't like the idea that the process is "good" because allows application of poison to the food to kill pests.

But in such a partisan environment, it's hard for the consumer to really know. And the reality is that most consumers aren't going to investigate on their own, they're going to go with their gut - or remain happily ignorant about it all. For me, though, I would like to know whether the food I'm buying has GMOs (and specifically what kind of process the food actually has undergone). Seems fair, right?

So it makes me very distrusting of the GMO advocate community when they fight so hard against labeling. Their principal argument is that the consumer presumes that GMOs are bad when there is little empirical evidence to support that conclusion - and, thus, GMO products would suffer from this stigma in the marketplace. So, as the argument goes, because the consumer's ignorance (i.e. prejudice) would significantly harm these products in the marketplace, the consumer should not be given that information to start with. That sort of "we know better than you so you don't get to know" approach always ends up on the wrong side of history - for better or for worse, IMO. After all, what about the consumers that do educate themselves and make an informed decision to avoid GMOs . . . should they not be given that information?

And while that's the argument at the consumer level, there's an equally interesting argument at the macro food infrastructure level. My uncle is a GS-15, top tier agriculture scientist at the USDA, and he argues that GMOs provide strength and reliability to our food production infrastructure that will only get more important as the world population continues to explode. Being able to engineer against crop failure is truly important, in his view, and he believes that unless some truly compelling research demonstrates harm, we should fully employ GMOs in crop production. This is persuasive, but longterm crop yield research has not demonstrated that GMO crops outpeform their natural brothers. What this means is that the GMOs don't tend to help in typical years - where the crops face typical threats. But particularly bad years or a particularly bad threat could benefit from GMO. Value of modified corn is more in reducing losses than boosting yields

My uncle recognizes the interest of an informed consumer through labeling, but he also agrees that there is likely an unsupported stigma that could work to undermine GMO development as commercial producers turn away from it due to market concerns . . . and that could hurt the nation's food production infrastructure, particularly if some bad new threat emerged.

So what do you think? Do you think the consumer should at least be informed? Do you think GMOs could help save us from starvation in the future? Is it something you think about at all when buying food?


Here's a fairly objective article on the current state of the GMO debate.
Excerpt:
How safe are GMOs?
It depends on whom you ask. A large number of anti-GMO activists — who refer to GMO crops as "Frankenfoods" — believe GMOs can cause environmental damage and health problems for consumers.

"Genetically modified foods have been linked to toxic and allergic reactions, sick, sterile and dead livestock, and damage to virtually every organ studied in lab animals," according to the Institute for Responsible Technology, a group of anti-GMO activists.

"Most developed nations do not consider GMOs to be safe," according to the Non-GMO Project. "In more than 60 countries around the world, including Australia, Japan and all of the countries in the European Union, there are significant restrictions or outright bans on the production and sale of GMOs."

However, many scientific organizations believe the fear-mongering that runs through discussions of GMO foods is more emotional than factual. "Indeed, the science is quite clear: crop improvement by the modern molecular techniques of biotechnology is safe," the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) said in a 2012 statement.

"The World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion: Consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM [genetically modified] crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques," according to the AAAS.

"Since GM crops were first commercialized in 1996 … regulatory agencies in 59 countries have conducted extensive scientific reviews and affirmed the safety of GM crops with 2,497 approvals on 319 different GMO traits in 25 crops," according to a statement on the website for Monsanto, the world's largest manufacturer of GMOs. "The majority (1,129) of approvals on GM crops have been on the food safety of the product."

GMO labeling debated
These assurances, however, do little to appease opponents of GMO development — and there have been cases where GMOs have caused harm. Potatoes engineered with a lectin gene (for resistance to pests) were linked to stomach damage in rats that consumed the potatoes, according to a report from the University of California, Davis. And in 1989, 37 people died and about 1,500 were sickened after ingesting L-tryptophan (a nutritional supplement) that was manufactured by a strain of GMO bacteria.

In both of these cases, however, it could not be determined that the GMO food itself was the cause of the problems: The L-tryptophan, for example, may have been contaminated with an impurity that arose from the manufacturing process, not from the L-tryptophan.

The argument over the development and marketing of GMO foods has become a political hot potato in recent years. In 2012, voters in California were asked if food made from GMOs should be labeled as such. The initiative was defeated — but only after GMO proponents like Monsanto, General Mills, Pepsico, DuPont, Hershey, Cargill, Kellogg, Hormel, Kraft, Mars, Goya, Ocean Spray, Nestle and other industrial food marketers spent millions on advertising to convince voters to vote against the measure.

Opponents in several states and countries continue to push for GMO labels on foods — if not outright bans on GMO foods — but industry and science insists the foods are safe, labels aren't needed and they'll just confuse consumers. Only one thing is certain: The battle for and against GMO crops, and the foods containing them, isn't likely to end soon.

GMOs: Facts About Genetically Modified Food
 
I'll have to read this later, but I do lean that direction.

I think bringing in non-native insects to deal with other pests have caused much more damage.
 
i would say it's a good idea to be wary of anything agri-business claims is healthy

in GMOs, the issue really isn't the particular "food" item - as much as agribusiness tries to make it something else, all planting is part of an ecosystem - you change one part of the ecosystem, you eventually change all of it

when pesticides were introduced into into industrialized farming few people understood that it would eventually create the huge hypoxic zone in the Gulf that it did
when hormones and anti-biotics were introduced to domestic livestock few understood how that would effect human health as well as the increasingly resistant bacteria strains
i would beat at the time that these were first introduced, much research said that they were just fine
there's nothing about GMOs tells me that we're doing anything but heading back down this well worn path
 
My philosophy is to ingest/inhale all additives/preservatives/pesticides, etc. I am building a body that will be immune to everything. I consume enough cholesterol to kill 10 men, but my cholesterol is 150. I plan on standing in front of my microwave oven for 5 hours a day to help prepare myself for the inevitable nuclear holocaust. I will be able to survive the radiation and rule the world of insects. I will be their god.

The Human Cockroach.
 
My philosophy is to ingest/inhale all additives/preservatives/pesticides, etc. I am building a body that will be immune to everything. I consume enough cholesterol to kill 10 men, but my cholesterol is 150. I plan on standing in front of my microwave oven for 5 hours a day to help prepare myself for the inevitable nuclear holocaust. I will be able to survive the radiation and rule the world of insects. I will be their god.

The Human Cockroach.

9riyxx.gif
 
come on chuck.. abridged version, please? i didn't come into this thread anticipating a case brief.
 
My wife has always been far more vigilant about what we eat than I. And with one toddler in the house and another baby on the way, she is moreso than ever. Her latest area of concern is GMOs. She recognizes that GMOs are everywhere in the foods we eat . . . and she isn't on some crazy rampage about it. But her point is that there is legitimate debate about the long-term health implications of GMOs - and some areas, like the EU, have heavily regulated GMOs - and that we should avoid feeding them to our children when it is reasonably possible to control (i.e. when we're eating at home). We have seen, however, that it is difficult to make an informed choice at the store because any GMO labeling is purely voluntary.

Her prerogative is fair enough, I go with it. But I like to make evidence-based decisions in my life and I have done a fair amount of research, looking for objective analysis. This is very difficult because information on the issue is heavily influenced by the special interests. You have to be very careful about the sources you find persuasive - who wrote it and what is their interest?

I think the greater evidence is that GMOs are typically safe - especially the most common (which incorporate genetic material from certain bacteria into agricultural crops to make them produce their own toxins that make them resistant to common pests). Another common method (heavily backed by Monsanto) uses genetic material to make the crops survive application of pesticides - when the unmodified crop would die from the poison. While this method may have yet to prove harmful in studies, I definitely don't like the idea that the process is "good" because allows application of poison to the food to kill pests.

But in such a partisan environment, it's hard for the consumer to really know. And the reality is that most consumers aren't going to investigate on their own, they're going to go with their gut - or remain happily ignorant about it all. For me, though, I would like to know whether the food I'm buying has GMOs (and specifically what kind of process the food actually has undergone). Seems fair, right?

So it makes me very distrusting of the GMO advocate community when they fight so hard against labeling. Their principal argument is that the consumer presumes that GMOs are bad when there is little empirical evidence to support that conclusion - and, thus, GMO products would suffer from this stigma in the marketplace. So, as the argument goes, because the consumer's ignorance (i.e. prejudice) would significantly harm these products in the marketplace, the consumer should not be given that information to start with. That sort of "we know better than you so you don't get to know" approach always ends up on the wrong side of history - for better or for worse, IMO. After all, what about the consumers that do educate themselves and make an informed decision to avoid GMOs . . . should they not be given that information?

And while that's the argument at the consumer level, there's an equally interesting argument at the macro food infrastructure level. My uncle is a GS-15, top tier agriculture scientist at the USDA, and he argues that GMOs provide strength and reliability to our food production infrastructure that will only get more important as the world population continues to explode. Being able to engineer against crop failure is truly important, in his view, and he believes that unless some truly compelling research demonstrates harm, we should fully employ GMOs in crop production. This is persuasive, but longterm crop yield research has not demonstrated that GMO crops outpeform their natural brothers. What this means is that the GMOs don't tend to help in typical years - where the crops face typical threats. But particularly bad years or a particularly bad threat could benefit from GMO. Value of modified corn is more in reducing losses than boosting yields

My uncle recognizes the interest of an informed consumer through labeling, but he also agrees that there is likely an unsupported stigma that could work to undermine GMO development as commercial producers turn away from it due to market concerns . . . and that could hurt the nation's food production infrastructure, particularly if some bad new threat emerged.

So what do you think? Do you think the consumer should at least be informed? Do you think GMOs could help save us from starvation in the future? Is it something you think about at all when buying food?


Here's a fairly objective article on the current state of the GMO debate.
Excerpt:


GMOs: Facts About Genetically Modified Food

I dont buy into it one bit.

Famously are their "round up resistant" soy beans.

Whenever you alter the genetic makeup of a living organism, its no longer the same thing.

The fact that GMOs are relatively recent ( last 20 years ) just doesnt provide enough historical data. Couple that with environmental factors, and GMO supporters always have "environmental factors" to fall back on as an argument regarding the safety of GMOs.

There is really no reason to alter Soy Beans to become "Round up" resistant, is there? As Round Up is technically a weed killer. So why exactly does one need to kill the weeds during growing season?


I ask myself this ( as I have a garden) - would i eat ANY of the veggies from my garden if I were to grow GMO based veggies after 30-60 days of treating with Round up?

Nope.

and I sure as heck wouldnt give to my children whose skeletal, muscular and brain growth and development is only beginning.

so yes we ( well the wife is lol ) are very cognizant of what we buy, particularly when it comes to fresh fruits/veggies and poultry/meat etc. I will spend a "bit" more ( ahem...lookin at you WHole Foods ) to have piece of mind.
 
The truth about GMOs and many hotly debated topics is somewhere in the middle. I would be a strong advocate for labeling. Without the labeling how can we be certain they are not engineering the foods to produce their own pesticides? Its cheaper than spraying them and since the proteins are naturally (I use that loosely here) produced, Its throughout all of the vegetable fibers, ie we can no longer wash it off.

However, your uncle is right. Crops yield are going to be higher. Some of the many many modifications companies are doing are making drought resistant strains. Which is helpful in the midwest. Others increase the plants tolerance of salinity, which can help coastal farmers.

There is wonderful potential to be able to produce more food. However you must always question when people dont want things transparent. They must be playing loose with our health to make more money or else they would openly label.
 
There is really no reason to alter Soy Beans to become "Round up" resistant, is there? As Round Up is technically a weed killer. So why exactly does one need to kill the weeds during growing season?


I ask myself this ( as I have a garden) - would i eat ANY of the veggies from my garden if I were to grow GMO based veggies after 30-60 days of treating with Round up?

Nope.

and I sure as heck wouldnt give to my children whose skeletal, muscular and brain growth and development is only beginning.

I agree that the Monsanto method is very troubling. But there are other processes that have nothing to do with pesticides - and, in fact, could make pesticides less important in the growing process.

That's part of my take on this, is that there are different things going on out there in the world of GMOs. I'd like to know what foods have GMO and what kind of GMO it actually is.
 
I dont buy into it one bit.

Famously are their "round up resistant" soy beans.

Whenever you alter the genetic makeup of a living organism, its no longer the same thing.

The fact that GMOs are relatively recent ( last 20 years ) just doesnt provide enough historical data. Couple that with environmental factors, and GMO supporters always have "environmental factors" to fall back on as an argument regarding the safety of GMOs.

There is really no reason to alter Soy Beans to become "Round up" resistant, is there? As Round Up is technically a weed killer. So why exactly does one need to kill the weeds during growing season?


I ask myself this ( as I have a garden) - would i eat ANY of the veggies from my garden if I were to grow GMO based veggies after 30-60 days of treating with Round up?

Nope.

and I sure as heck wouldnt give to my children whose skeletal, muscular and brain growth and development is only beginning.

so yes we ( well the wife is lol ) are very cognizant of what we buy, particularly when it comes to fresh fruits/veggies and poultry/meat etc. I will spend a "bit" more ( ahem...lookin at you WHole Foods ) to have piece of mind.


You lost me with the bolded part. Why would you NOT need to kill weeds during the soybean growing season? Soybeans are a low growing crop. Having a field full of weeds would be impossible to harvest the soybeans.


to the OP, I understand the concern with chemicals but being genetically modified is nothing new. Crossbreeding has been going on for a long long time which genetically modifies the plant.
 
You lost me with the bolded part. Why would you NOT need to kill weeds during the soybean growing season? Soybeans are a low growing crop. Having a field full of weeds would be impossible to harvest the soybeans.


to the OP, I understand the concern with chemicals but being genetically modified is nothing new. Crossbreeding has been going on for a long long time which genetically modifies the plant.

Did I?

ok...so Soybeans are a "low growing crop"...so what kind of weeds are we talking about here? Is there any reason that proper maintaining of the soil and fields couldnt manage the "weeds" as you call them? Without having to resort to using an Herbicide to control?

Im pretty sure there are a ton of methods that could be employed to properly manage weed growth during the season ( pre-emergents, proper drainage etc etc )
 
to the OP, I understand the concern with chemicals but being genetically modified is nothing new. Crossbreeding has been going on for a long long time which genetically modifies the plant.

I get your point, but I think cross-breeding really just takes advantage of the relative ease with with species reproduce - but the species being crossed still have to be close enough to be accomplished within the realm of what is ultimately natural reproduction. While the resulting hybrid has advantages and is the result of human intervention, the reproduction process itself is still natural. The hybrid is genetically different than both of the parents and thus a genetic modification, but I don't think that's quite the same as being able to engineer the actual DNA to include material from species that could never naturally breed (e.g. earthworm DNA into a pig).

But at the same time, I think you're right that the concerns have probably been categorically the same. And perhaps long-term study will show that GMO is more akin to cross-breeding than it is so "frankenfood".
 
Did I?

ok...so Soybeans are a "low growing crop"...so what kind of weeds are we talking about here? Is there any reason that proper maintaining of the soil and fields couldnt manage the "weeds" as you call them? Without having to resort to using an Herbicide to control?

Im pretty sure there are a ton of methods that could be employed to properly manage weed growth during the season ( pre-emergents, proper drainage etc etc )


I am not a farmer but I know that if left alone, weeds take over my wife's little garden. Strenuous use of a hoe and weed picking can keep it under control but this is impractical on a large scale. Broadleaf weeds can easily and quickly take over soybeans fields from what I have seen.

Pre-emergents are still chemicals. Getting tractors into actively growing soybean fields to work the soil is a costly task and can damage the crops. I am sure that if there were a better and more cost effective way, farmers would be utilizing those methods. Again, I am not a farmer.
 

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