Going to go against the grain on this (1 Viewer)

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I keep seeing people assess that our main need on defense is an edge rusher. I disagree.

Cam Jordan is ranked only behind JJ Watt it top statistical categories for a DE over the last 3-4 years. He's been ranked as a top 3 DE by PFF for 2 years running now. Possibly 3 if I dig deeper.

If JJ Watt is capable of 16+ sacks well Cam should be as well.


What's the difference?


Watt has had the luxury of playing with a better secondary over that same span. We need a compliment to Cam but what we really need is a legit #1 CB which has been missing since Greer went down because KLew was injured in subsequent years and Breaux was a rookie. Add that to trotting out other teams castoffs or UDFA's at CB the last few years and Brandon Browner and the main issue with the passrushe has been coverage because they work hand in hand.

Cam could easily get 10+ every year if he had a good secondary.

Good thing is it's on its way. Depth is building and you just need a main CB and it will improve the time EVEYONE has to get to the QB. If you play this year alone with say Breaux/PJ Williams/Keenan Lewis all healthy that's a completely different defense even with the same passrushers.

Too many times u see Jordan closing in for the sack and the QB finds an open man. He's a 3-4 sec guy and not a traditional 2-3sec edge guy but you could get that extra 1 sec with better coverage.

You can really boost it by adding both players but adding 1 CB and returning others and not adding a passrusher would still end up showing a marked improvement. Bigger than folks think.

Just look at Jordan's stats on the year.

Jordan leads the Saints with 7.5 sacks this season. He's tied for first in the NFL with 17 tackles for loss. He's tied for fifth in the league with 23 quarterback hits. And he has a career high with six passes defensed.

You give that man just 1 more second. Have the ability to take away just 1 more read and that guy gets home more than 7.5 times and he rightfully is playing in the Pro Bowl and being seen as an All-Pro.

No id have to disagree. A passrusher can be nullified with a 2second or under delivery. It's when he has to Pat the ball that 1 extra time or start and stop his throwing motion due to good coverage that you see those guys get home but even Von Miller/Demarcus Ware are non factors when the ball is out in under 2 secs.

Expect a big statistical leap next year should we hit On the right pieces.


Who Dat!

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I'd also like to add that he whiffed on at least 3 sacks but the coverage from last year to this year under DA has been better and thus his ability to get home has been better but my gosh that guy has 12.5 + sack potential with a good secondary. The top total for this year is only 14.5. All the guys in the top 5 are from ATL,Seattle,Minnesota,Buffalo,and SEA. 3 of those teams good secondaries. 2 of those guys are in schemes that set them up for success as Sam LBs in under fronts.

Jordan even if we go DE 1st pick is still going to be the best passrusher on this team and if the pick has success it'll be because of the things Jordan does that makes it easier on the RDE.

Jordan is the Elite DE. He's just not a speed rusher.

 

[Optimistic Ozzy]

I keep seeing people assess that our main need on defense is an edge rusher. I disagree.

Cam Jordan is ranked only behind JJ Watt it top statistical categories for a DE over the last 3-4 years. He's been ranked as a top 3 DE by PFF for 2 years running now. Possibly 3 if I dig deeper.

If JJ Watt is capable of 16+ sacks well Cam should be as well.


What's the difference?


Watt has had the luxury of playing with a better secondary over that same span. We need a compliment to Cam but what we really need is a legit #1 CB which has been missing since Greer went down because KLew was injured in subsequent years and Breaux was a rookie. Add that to trotting out other teams castoffs or UDFA's at CB the last few years and Brandon Browner and the main issue with the passrushe has been coverage because they work hand in hand.

Cam could easily get 10+ every year if he had a good secondary.

Good thing is it's on its way. Depth is building and you just need a main CB and it will improve the time EVEYONE has to get to the QB. If you play this year alone with say Breaux/PJ Williams/Keenan Lewis all healthy that's a completely different defense even with the same passrushers.

Too many times u see Jordan closing in for the sack and the QB finds an open man. He's a 3-4 sec guy and not a traditional 2-3sec edge guy but you could get that extra 1 sec with better coverage.

You can really boost it by adding both players but adding 1 CB and returning others and not adding a passrusher would still end up showing a marked improvement. Bigger than folks think.

Just look at Jordan's stats on the year.



You give that man just 1 more second. Have the ability to take away just 1 more read and that guy gets home more than 7.5 times and he rightfully is playing in the Pro Bowl and being seen as an All-Pro.

No id have to disagree. A passrusher can be nullified with a 2second or under delivery. It's when he has to Pat the ball that 1 extra time or start and stop his throwing motion due to good coverage that you see those guys get home but even Von Miller/Demarcus Ware are non factors when the ball is out in under 2 secs.

Expect a big statistical leap next year should we hit On the right pieces.


Who Dat!

Sorry to inform you of this, but until Watt got injured, Jordan couldn't hold his jock. We DO need a speed rusher that can bend and get around the tackle in a hurry. We have Rankins and Fairley to make the push, but we really don't have the speed edge rusher.

 

[FootballLady]

Sorry to inform you of this, but until Watt got injured, Jordan couldn't hold his jock. We DO need a speed rusher that can bend and get around the tackle in a hurry. We have Rankins and Fairley to make the push, but we really don't have the speed edge rusher.

Why are you sorry to inform?

 

[crawfish2010]

There's a reason why pass rushers are the 2nd highest paid players in football. I think a dominant pass rusher opposite of Cam is all the Saints defense needs. I think they have the pocket pushers in Fairley and Shelton, Cam Jordan is a complete DE and now all the need is a speed rusher from the blind side.

If the QB only has 2 seconds to throw the ball then you don't need dominant defensive backs. Can you name any of the DBs from the Giants vs Patriots Superbowl win?
I remember Osi, Tuck and Strahan causing problems for Brady but the only DB I remember is that dude from LSU... Corey something?

Basically, I don't think the Saints are 1 DB away from a good defense but I think they are 1 pass rusher away.

 

[Saint Droopy]

I keep seeing people assess that our main need on defense is an edge rusher. I disagree.

Cam Jordan is ranked only behind JJ Watt it top statistical categories for a DE over the last 3-4 years. He's been ranked as a top 3 DE by PFF for 2 years running now. Possibly 3 if I dig deeper.

While I agree we need help at CB we can definitely use another DE oppo Cam, because... you know... we need 2 of those.
Our defense was at its best when we had Cam and junior getting pressure off the edge. With Rankins and (hopefully) Fairley getting pressure from the inside we need guys on the edge that can get after the QB. That would make our entire defense look better.

We can definitely use help at CB though, but I think priority #1 should be a edge rusher.

 

[bthomas1]

Webster

 

[MV2]

I keep seeing people assess that our main need on defense is an edge rusher. I disagree.

Cam Jordan is ranked only behind JJ Watt it top statistical categories for a DE over the last 3-4 years. He's been ranked as a top 3 DE by PFF for 2 years running now. Possibly 3 if I dig deeper.

If JJ Watt is capable of 16+ sacks well Cam should be as well.


What's the difference?


Watt has had the luxury of playing with a better secondary over that same span. We need a compliment to Cam but what we really need is a legit #1 CB which has been missing since Greer went down because KLew was injured in subsequent years and Breaux was a rookie. Add that to trotting out other teams castoffs or UDFA's at CB the last few years and Brandon Browner and the main issue with the passrushe has been coverage because they work hand in hand.

Cam could easily get 10+ every year if he had a good secondary.

Good thing is it's on its way. Depth is building and you just need a main CB and it will improve the time EVEYONE has to get to the QB. If you play this year alone with say Breaux/PJ Williams/Keenan Lewis all healthy that's a completely different defense even with the same passrushers.

Too many times u see Jordan closing in for the sack and the QB finds an open man. He's a 3-4 sec guy and not a traditional 2-3sec edge guy but you could get that extra 1 sec with better coverage.

You can really boost it by adding both players but adding 1 CB and returning others and not adding a passrusher would still end up showing a marked improvement. Bigger than folks think.

Just look at Jordan's stats on the year.



You give that man just 1 more second. Have the ability to take away just 1 more read and that guy gets home more than 7.5 times and he rightfully is playing in the Pro Bowl and being seen as an All-Pro.

No id have to disagree. A passrusher can be nullified with a 2second or under delivery. It's when he has to Pat the ball that 1 extra time or start and stop his throwing motion due to good coverage that you see those guys get home but even Von Miller/Demarcus Ware are non factors when the ball is out in under 2 secs.

Expect a big statistical leap next year should we hit On the right pieces.


Who Dat!

I am a Cam Jordan fan, but he is no JJ Watt. That being said, I understand your point. I think us as fans want to see someone that can get there even if the coverage isn't elite. Cam can rush, but he's not a speed guy. Cam is a well balanced DE and his strength at the point of attack is one of the reasons he's so good. However, he just doesn't bend the edge like the edge rushers our fans have been hoping for.

 

[bthomas1]

Corey Webster

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I am a Cam Jordan fan, but he is no JJ Watt. That being said, I understand your point. I think us as fans want to see someone that can get there even if the coverage isn't elite. Cam can rush, but he's not a speed guy. Cam is a well balanced DE and his strength at the point of attack is one of the reasons he's so good. However, he just doesn't bend the edge like the edge rushers our fans have been hoping for.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is go look at the Sack Totals for all the guys. Even the Elite DE's/OLB's can be fended off when the reads are clean. Von Miller didn't even have an effect on our game until late when Drew attempted to hold the ball to go down field. Other than that quick deliveries can take away an edge guy.

Quick deliveries can be taken away with good coverage. Good coverage gives passrushers more time.

Now you have to have good passrushers to take advantage of the time so I still agree we need a DE because like CB you need two of those but If we had Two CB's (3 would be best) it could have made this defense look A LOT better as every team doesn't have 2 good passrushers but every sack leader in the top 5 had at least 2 good CB's to work with.

Thus we need another CB...then another DE/OLB. IF you were to just get another edge rusher he'd still be in the same spot the other guys are if the ball is out under 2 secs. He would win possibly more times when the QB holds the ball a little longer but he'd be at the mercy of those quick releases the say way every other DE is.

Sorry to inform you of this, but until Watt got injured, Jordan couldn't hold his jock. We DO need a speed rusher that can bend and get around the tackle in a hurry. We have Rankins and Fairley to make the push, but we really don't have the speed edge rusher.

In 2013 with good coverage and still a growing player Cam had 12.5 sacks. Where Cam is now if he had the DB of 2013 the kid easily goes for 15+ sacks. I agree that Watt is a rare field DE but at this rate being picked 13 spots after him Cam Jordan is not far off.

If Watt is a HOF then Jordan is a Superstar we haven't had many Superstar defenders on D. He's better than Will Smith was.


Also, just to clear the air some of the responses are like no we need a DE. I'm not disagreeing we need a DE but most teams have 2 good CB's one good DE. We have had 1 good DE and 1 Average CB + bunch of castoff's/bad players for the last 3 years. Quickest improvement to make it better is to add 1 good CB. It is no coincidence we went after Josh Norman AND checked on Joe Haden but were wiling to see if Edebali or Gwacham could play RDE and then finally signing a cut FA in Kruger. The team knows the exact same thing... coverage on the back end has been mediocre and they tried to fix it and were worried about that more than a RDE.

The importance of the LDE in this scheme is enormous.

IJS.

 

[Optimistic Ozzy]

Why are you sorry to inform?

I'm sorry to inform him that we don't have a bend/speed edge rusher, like I'm sorry we don't have a bend/speed edgen rusher.

 

[sammymvpknight]

I am a Cam Jordan fan, but he is no JJ Watt. That being said, I understand your point. I think us as fans want to see someone that can get there even if the coverage isn't elite. Cam can rush, but he's not a speed guy. Cam is a well balanced DE and his strength at the point of attack is one of the reasons he's so good. However, he just doesn't bend the edge like the edge rushers our fans have been hoping for.

I agree. The biggest reason why Jordan does put up Watt type numbers is because he's not Watt. But nobody is Watt. Watt is the most dominant defensive player I've seen.

But Jordan should be a 10-15 sack guy. He just needs to be supported with a better cast. Having good interior pass rushers is nice, but your weak side end is suppose to be the biggest pass rush threat on your team. It's been a void since Galette went stupid.

 

[JackDiesel]

Given our push for Norman and Haden I think the Saints agree with the need at CB. I also fully anticipate them going the veteran route to fill that need.

Then get the speed rusher that our front line so desperately needs via the draft. It's not a coincidence that Jordan's best year came in the same year when Galette had his coming out party and posted double digit sacks.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Heres more proof of the importance/ value of certain positions. Yes RDE is a need but whats the value you put on that need vs how it fits in the scheme. SP talks about it below.


Saints searching in-house for Cam Jordan's pass-rushing running mate | NOLA.com

Yet, the Saints stood pat on the edge, failing to add a pass rusher in free agency and during the NFL draft. Now, it seems like the Saints are truly living on the edge with their fourth man on the front line an unknown commodity with Kikaha likely gone for the 2016 season.

"We were not going to create and just draft one (early) because that was a need," Payton said Wednesday. "That'd be a mistake. Like I said, we have got some young guys. It's here. No one is coming here and sitting down at this press conference a week from now, (saying), 'Ah he arrived!' They are here. And it is our job to coach them and get them ready. That's why we're here, and we're excited about it.

Now add the above to these fact

Mickey Loomis: Saints made 'strong offer' to CB Josh Norman | NOLA.com

He added: "I think we're always trying to add good players. We like the guys we have. We have some young guys back there. We have Keenan (Lewis) coming off the injury, but he's been a good player for us in the past and we expect a lot of things from him...

"Obviously we are real surprised by Delvin (Breaux) and the performance he had, so we are looking for him to build on that and we have some young guys as I said. I don't think we view that as a critical need and yet there's an opportunity to get a really good player, so we took a shot."

The part I want to point out is that he didn't think it was a critical need yet we were about to restructure Drew to Add Norman. We were about to overkill a "non critical" need. Interesting!

Yet the position that everyone else in the media and on this board considered a critical need(RDE) we were much more content with waiting on guys to take the "next leap"

Yet again here is another article about the play for Haden. This was during a time when Breaux was getting healthy, Moore was also getting healthy, and BW Webb was playing solidly while also knowing next year you'd get PJ Williams back too. Also we "made a play" knowing that Haden's salary this year would be large and even larger next year. All that at a position that again wasn't deemed a "critical need"

Saints kicked tires on Browns CB Joe Haden before trade deadline - New Orleans Saints Blog- ESPN

The Saints’ cornerback position has been ravaged by injuries this year, but they’re starting to get healthier. No. 1 cornerback Delvin Breaux is expected to return as soon as this week from a broken fibula suffered in Week 1. And veteran Sterling Moore should be back soon from an abdomen injury.

Now you can use your common sense or you can keep believing that DE is the primary need here when its obvious we've been looking for a #1 CB since the off-season and made plays on 2 separate occasions.


Here is another quote from Obum that also suggest how much more important Cam/LDE is to the scheme and how much easier it makes it on the RDE. Another reason why you wouldn't invest high resources in the position because what you are asking the player to do is very simple because of the job the LDE does. It's much easier to fill that position with a vet or young player than it is to fill LDE or #1 CB

"In our regular package, we have a closed and open ended Jack," Gwacham said, "I'm doing open end. There are are certain times where we have our rush packages where I'll be another end...

"You want your open end to be your faster guy, the guy that can get to the ball. You want your close end to be someone like Cam Jordan, who's a little bit bigger, he'll take on the tight ends, freeing us a little more."

New Orleans Saints DE Obum Gwacham: 'I love where we're headed' | NOLA.com



Idk man. Logic, research, and the obvious clearly say. CB is the #1 need on defense and edge rusher is probably 3rd behind Will LB based on how patient we were with Ellerbe and how much we wanted Sua Cravens to play that spot.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I agree. The biggest reason why Jordan does put up Watt type numbers is because he's not Watt. But nobody is Watt. Watt is the most dominant defensive player I've seen.

But Jordan should be a 10-15 sack guy. He just needs to be supported with a better cast. Having good interior pass rushers is nice, but your weak side end is suppose to be the biggest pass rush threat on your team. It's been a void since Galette went stupid.

Thats not true and I've quoted several article and had this discussion with you on separate occasions that suggest your thinking is dated. In fact here the article yet again.

Vic Beasley's emergence, Brock Osweiler's deficiency and more - NFL.com

I not only underestimated his potential to destroy opponents as a rusher, but I also failed to see the wisdom in the Falcons' decision to follow a league-wide trend that's helping a number of dynamic defenders deliver more splash plays off the edge. Instead of positioning an elite pass rusher on the quarterback's blind side -- which is typically on the defensive right, as most quarterbacks are right-handed and thus drop back facing the other way -- teams are beginning to put their primary pass-rush specialist on the left to allow him to exploit right tackles, tight ends and running backs in pass protection.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the top sack artists in the league today and you'll notice that most spend the majority of their time attacking the quarterback from the defensive right. From Von Miller to Khalil Mack to Michael Bennett to Cameron Wake and even J.J. Watt (when healthy), the most disruptive pass rushers in football are spending more of their time on the front side of the defense. This is a trick that I learned from John Fox during my time with the Carolina Panthers, when he positioned Julius Peppers at left defensive end. Fox did the same thing with Hall of Fame DE Michael Strahan during his time as Giants defensive coordinator.


So while I respect your opinion and argument I think your thinking of where the passrush HAS to come from is a bit archaic and this article should actually make you very aware that the reason we are playing Cam in that position at LDE is becasue he's our best passrusher and the RDE in this scheme is furher down the list on what makes this defense run.