Gotta Re-sign Jameis at This Point (2 Viewers)

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What I find interesting is that his is how people used to think of the starting RB role. Guys only wanted to go places where they would get 20 to 30 carries for game and never left the field. It was odd when teams would give a #2 RB any snaps where the starter wasn't injured or completely winded.

Now, "running back by committee" and "third down backs" are just normal and every team does it to some extent. RBs now like it because it extends their career when there is another guy that can carry the load and limit there touches per game.

I wonder if that isn't the future at QB? It will take awhile, but running QBs like Hill or Tebow prior to him that were great runners, but limited in the passing game, tend to either be moved to another position, sit on the bench, or end up out of the NFL now. Hill is the exception, but really only because Payton is innovative and wanted to use those running skills while he tried to develop him as a passer.

So, maybe that's the future just like the current system was the future at RB. You have lots of college QBs that are great runners but limited passers. That's obviously and issue as a starting QB in addition to running QBs being injury risks. But, maybe in the future teams will have a Read Option QB on the roster as a specialist to run some plays or take a drive to get the defense out of rhythm and make them prepare for something else.

Of course, Cordell Stewart was used in similar ways, but it didn't lead to a revolution in the use of running QBs. But, it just seems like a natural progression to me.
in the short history of "running QB" in the NFL has shown limited shelf life of players much like a NFL RB.
 

St. Widge

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in the short history of "running QB" in the NFL has shown limited shelf life of players much like a NFL RB.

No doubt, but I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying that the future of the NFL is running QBs as starters. In fact, as you said, running QBs get hurt and that's an issue when you base your offense around that skill.

That's why I'm thinking maybe the position evolves to be what Hill does for the Saints. You have your regular starting QB, but you also have a Read Option QB on the team. It becomes a guy that you give 6 to 8 snaps to per game or a series if your offense is struggling. That way, it's less wear and tear on your Read Option QB, but you still get to keep the defense honest and make them prepare for those plays. And, it gives you another option if your offense is getting nowhere. Essentially, you are making the Read Option QB into another RB. So, it also reduces how many touches your lead RB has to take.

But, it's obviously just speculation and something that occurred to me. Also, we drafted Tommy Stevens. Although we did actually move him to TE, I wonder if there was a plan to use him to keep having that Read Option QB on the roster if Hill left or ended up being the starter?
 
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You are describing a run game. Hills snaps are an extension of the run game.
It also sounds alot like something ANY running back can do...but that's good, at least we're making some progress on getting you closer to what the appropriate end result should be.

Just imagine how much more a defense would be surprised if Alvin Kamara lined up in the shotgun and actually threw it.
 

St. Widge

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It also sounds alot like something ANY running back can do...but that's good, at least we're making some progress on getting you closer to what the appropriate end result should be.

Just imagine how much more a defense would be surprised if Alvin Kamara lined up in the shotgun and actually threw it.

I think the difference is that a QB in college is used to making the line calls, making audibles, taking snaps from center, and will have already learned how to read the defensive end when running the Read Option. So, you have the option of running Read Option, not just QB Power if you have a QB under center who has experience running the Read Option. And, that makes it a lot more difficult for the defense to know what is coming since even the QB doesn't know until he reads the DE. I think what Hill does becomes predictable because he almost never hands it off. He's basically always just running QB Power. Which makes sense. I don't think BYU ran Read Option while Hill was there. But, I could be wrong.
 
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I think the difference is that a QB in college is used to making the line calls, making audibles, taking snaps from center, and will have already learned how to read the defensive end when running the Read Option. So, you have the option of running Read Option, not just QB Power if you have a QB under center who has experience running the Read Option. And, that makes it a lot more difficult for the defense to know what is coming since even the QB doesn't know until he reads the DE. I think what Hill does becomes predictable because he almost never hands it off. He's basically always just running QB Power. Which makes sense. I don't think BYU ran Read Option while Hill was there. But, I could be wrong.
Agreed, Hill was never good at reading the end in the RPO - he kept it almost every time regardless of what the end was doing. it's why we don't even bother with the RPO...no point in wasting the motion if he's just going to keep it anyway.

Now we're at the "he has to throw it to keep defenses honest phase" but since is "natural" position is QB, it's kinda expected every once in a while. That's why I say, it'll be more surprising to line Kamara up at QB in the gun and either run or throw it if we want to catch someone by surprise, because AK running the ball against an expecting defense IMO > Hill and it'll definitely catch them off guard of he threw it...because it's really unexpected
 

El Caliente

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It also sounds alot like something ANY running back can do...but that's good, at least we're making some progress on getting you closer to what the appropriate end result should be.

Just imagine how much more a defense would be surprised if Alvin Kamara lined up in the shotgun and actually threw it.
If the appropriate response is the Saints winning football games, then I am right there with you. I don’t care about players feelings, I care about W/Ls.

We were always at the “he needs to throw it to keep the defense honest” point with this. There is no “finally arriving at”, we were always here. Anything other than that and the question is, why have a quarterback in that role?
 

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Got bad news for you...bad player feelings lead to lack of effort and Ls
Thank goodness we have Sean as a coach and not Nagy. Hard to imagine any Saints players feeling bad when we are rolling up Ws.

It doesn’t matter if you are winning with a Quarterback under center, or a defensive tackle under center, all that matters is that you are winning.
 
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boutte

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I think that model needs to end because it was causing problems in the early part of the season. Not to rehash an old debate but if Winston is your starter let him operate the vast majority of the snaps outside of special situations. How much of Hill's usage in the past was a byproduct of Drew's age? As I've said before, it is not unusual for a team to use special plays for playmakers but if Winston is your QB you don't need Taysom to throw the ball. Winston is very effective in the red zone, so why would that be necessary. Most teams only do that in special situations. If we acquired one of the dream QBs (Russ, Rogers, etc.) would you say we to have Taysom throw the ball more?
Who cares what most teams do? How many teams do what we do. How many of them have the record we have over the last ten years?
 
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Thank goodness we have Sean as a coach and not Nagy. Hard to imagine any Saints players feeling bad when we are rolling up Ws.

Of your are winning with a Quarterback under center, or a defensive tackle under center, all that matters is that you are winning.
Whatever, not even sure why I bothered with the "feeling" angle you threw into the conversation...purely from a football standpoint you mentioned that his best ability to the team is running the ball...my retort: why not leave that up to...uh a running back.

But then he's not the best RB (maybe 3rd possibly 4th best) on the team nor is he the best passer (it can be argued that he's around the 3rd best passer) then what is our attachment, is it that he actually does all of these things?

To sum it up, Offensively speaking, there are;

5 guys on the team right now that can run a better route and catch a better ball than Hill

At least 2 on the team right now that can take a handoff or direct snap that can see the field better than and carry better ball than Hill

And there were 2, now 1 under contract that could scan a field and deliver a football better than Hill

He's a Jack of all, Master of (especially NFL QB) None...there's a reason why he was a UDFA, but for some odd reason we have this attachment to the underdog type. I'm a football elitist, gimme the Heisman Winning #1 Draft prospect with the higher ceiling any day.
 

St. Widge

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Agreed, Hill was never good at reading the end in the RPO - he kept it almost every time regardless of what the end was doing. it's why we don't even bother with the RPO...no point in wasting the motion if he's just going to keep it anyway.

Now we're at the "he has to throw it to keep defenses honest phase" but since is "natural" position is QB, it's kinda expected every once in a while. That's why I say, it'll be more surprising to line Kamara up at QB in the gun and either run or throw it if we want to catch someone by surprise, because AK running the ball against an expecting defense IMO > Hill and it'll definitely catch them off guard of he threw it...because it's really unexpected

Yeah, I mean Hill is no longer a surprise really and it's not really a trick play anymore. I'm just wondering if given Hill's age and the fact that his contract is only for two more years, if you think about finding a Read Option QB late in the draft or as an udfa to groom as a guy to give you that Read Option look in the future. It would be a much cheaper option in the long run and Payton may be one of the very few guys innovative enough to continue to do what he has done with Hill. I thought that was the plan with Tommy Stevens, but they immediately moved him to TE.
 
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Yeah, I mean Hill is no longer a surprise really and it's not really a trick play anymore. I'm just wondering if given Hill's age and the fact that his contract is only for two more years, if you think about finding a Read Option QB late in the draft or as an udfa to groom as a guy to give you that Read Option look in the future. It would be a much cheaper option in the long run and Payton may be one of the very few guys innovative enough to continue to do what he has done with Hill. I thought that was the plan with Tommy Stevens, but they immediately moved him to TE.
I hate that package, I hope we get rid of it altogether. We broke NFL records without resorting to QB trickery...we should be just fine without.

By me saying I hate that package...that doesn't mean I hate Hill...his fans get on my damn nerves, but what I'm saying is, again, that I hate RPO football...I don't consider that a real offensive system...it has no use once an opposing defense figures it out.
 
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St. Widge

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I hate that package, I hope we get rid of it altogether. We broke NFL records without resorting to QB trickery...we should be just fine without

Yeah, it just depends on if Payton wants it to continue to be part of the offense or if he just had it because he thinks Hill is unique and it's gone when he is gone. I trust that Payton will make the right decision.

But, I don't really count it as trickery. I see it as taking advantage of a talent that is out there but isn't used by other NFL teams. The cost would be low since the best Read Option QBs aren't even drafted and it gives you something other teams don't have. Plus, I like the idea of having a counter punch if your OL is having issues keeping your QB clean on a particular day. It could really take a DL out of rhythm when they suddenly have to start playing contain against the Read Option instead of their normal reads.
 

No2DC

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Who cares what most teams do? How many teams do what we do. How many of them have the record we have over the last ten years?
I've addressed that with my Pitt, KC, and NE post elsewhere. The practice is an anomaly even among Coaches/teams with similar or better records.
 

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