Great game against Rams except for ST (1 Viewer)

[MJ in Calif]

Really? We can't enjoy a pretty dominat victory without complaining about something?

The team is 5-6 with no margin or error at this point because of special teams. That unit has cost the team 3 games; NYG, Denver, and Car. With competent special teams play, their record would be 8-3 and 1st place in the division. Payton brings in a consultant and we see really no improvement. In close games, this will cost them again down the stretch. Its time to show that guy the door. Where is the accountability?

 

[crosswatt]

The team is 5-6 with no margin or error at this point because of special teams. That unit has cost the team 3 games; NYG, Denver, and Car. With competent special teams play, their record would be 8-3 and 1st place in the division. Payton brings in a consultant and we see really no improvement. In close games, this will cost them again down the stretch. Its time to show that guy the door. Where is the accountability?

Probably in the accounting department. 49 points against one of the best defenses in the league, and this is all we can fixate on?

 

[26ISTHEMAN]

Probably in the accounting department. 49 points against one of the best defenses in the league, and this is all we can fixate on?

But it's not the only thing people are fixed on. There are many other positive threads about all the good things that happened yesterday. ST deserves its own thread because ST play is still terrible. Why is that so hard to understand? Do you think we should only talk about it when it costs us another game?

 

[crosswatt]

But it's not the only thing people are fixed on. There are many other positive threads about all the good things that happened yesterday. ST deserves its own thread because ST play is still terrible. Why is that so hard to understand? Do you think we should only talk about it when it costs us another game?

I don't know, but it's really starting to suck some of the joy out of the board for me.

 

[Mikie17]

Brees was brilliant again and the D tightened up in the second half against the Rams. But the Saints' kick coverage unit gave up an average of 32.6 yards on five kickoff returns, including a 61-yard return. And TommyLee Lewis muffed a punt return that easily could have led to a turnover. We can't afford to blow another game due to ST. Even with two coach-helpers, McMahon isn't getting the job done.

Understand your post, but I didn't think we would fix ST in one week. Maybe over time we get that deficiency corrected. Yes, we cannot afford to blow another game due to a ST issue, but the TommyLee Lewis muffed punt was on TommyLee 100%...not any of the ST coaches. Therefore, I cannot pin that one on them. Watching the replay, he clearly took his eyes off the ball trying to run before the catch. That is not coaching, that's the player's decision making.

As for the rest of the phases:
-Offense was great. Payton had extra motivation to stick it to Greg Williams, and the Snead pass was the middle finger.

-Defense played better in the 2nd half, not the 1st. Lacking consistency, but not heart and the will to play. That is a good sign that we will not give up and roll over.

-ST is a work in progress, however, I think it may come around with all of the attention the unit is getting. Lutz kicks looked a little better, and Morestead is elite.

 

[SAINTIN NEBR]

Did anyone notice that Denver got flagged for having too many players on the left side of the LOS for a Chief's field goal last night? Just goes to show how certain teams are always trying to push the envelope (cheat) to gain an advantage..I'm betting the Chiefs watched plenty of film on the Denver Special teams..that last field goal to win the game you could see the Chief's long-snapper take his time and get on the same page with Santos and his place holder..I bet they were expecting Denver to jump over the line.... karma.. the ball hits the left upright and bounces thru for the win..that was so awesome..

 

[blackadder]

But it's not the only thing people are fixed on. There are many other positive threads about all the good things that happened yesterday. ST deserves its own thread because ST play is still terrible. Why is that so hard to understand? Do you think we should only talk about it when it costs us another game?

I can't speak for everyone but personally I've watched a lot of Saints football to the Mora era and beyond. We've been in the current regime a long time too. You start to see patterns and some of the patterns are things that based on experience you know in your gut have a high probability of costing you games, particularly late in the year and in the playoffs.

For me that's where I focus the analysis and critique on this OPINION and DISCUSSION board. The question I'm always looking at is "what needs to be done better to give a realistic chance to challenge for a championship?"...which is the whole point of suiting up and contesting the games.

Some are in it for pure week-to-week entertainment. I'm more entertained when I see the trends leading to a realistic chance to compete for a championship. That's an expectation you should have when you have arguably the best QB in the history of the game. Is what many can call 'negativity' a statement like "the offense is awesome and we will always have a fighting chance with Brees but we are still doing a poor job at A, B, and C and unless we fix that it's going to prevent us from being successful at the goal of a championship?"

This isn't simply innate 'negativity'. There are some things in the Saints offense-first formula that have held this team back from being truly dominant over the last decade and they are things that have persisted from season to season. So, after a decade of it everybody can see it and I think it is justified in saying "come on, man, can't we do better with this?".

There is visible positive progress in a couple areas that have hurt this team year in year out and that's great. ST isn't one of the things trending the right way so far. It's actually regressed (from already below average). Thing is this has been obvious to anyone for years now and the organization has been really slow to address it and could only be bothered to even try to put a band-aid on it by adding an outside consultant after it has cost this team three games and 1st place in the division, and in the end may cost a playoff berth and/or winning season.

These are the kinds of things seasons turn on so would seem completely reasonable to discuss and analyze for fans who are interested in understanding all the factors of success or failure for the team they support.

Is that negativity?

I think it's discussion of opinion about what we need to be able to do better NOW to challenge the league. If it sounds like harping that is in part because the problem has been left unaddressed for so long and everyone sees this and has discussed for a long time. At what point are you harping when it's a serious recurring problem that keeps giving you things to talk about?

If people don't enjoy this kind of discussion you don't have to read the thread. You can just stick to the ones that recount passing statistics and discuss the fantastic offensive performances and stick to the positive rah rah stuff. That's fine.

Some prefer to dissect everything, including the weak spots, others never want to even admit or discuss a weakness.

I guess it's back to the glass half empty/glass half full concept...

 

[MJ in Calif]

Probably in the accounting department. 49 points against one of the best defenses in the league, and this is all we can fixate on?

Cute response. I'm talking about holding someone accountable for their responsibility. Yes, I'm happy for the win yesterday but disappointed in the overall record of the team. Because of the play of STs, their chances of making the playoffs and competing for another title are slim and are even slimmer if they don't correct the STs play. Yesterday we saw remnants of that, It was overshadowed by the offenses performance along with a solid effort on the D in the 2nd half. It is not negative, just citing facts. I don't know what else to tell you. People have the opinions and that is the purpose of the board.

 

[Paul]

wet rat fart...

Let the nightmares commence..

 

[DaveXA]

I don't know, but it's really starting to suck some of the joy out of the board for me.

If that's happening, my suggestion would be to avoid threads discussing STs, because the criticism isn't going to go away until we see significant improvement there.

Poor STs play isn't a recent development. It's been going on pretty much since McMahon got here. Also, just because some of the rest of the league is doing terrible doesn't excuse McMahon and our STs for their poor play. Yesterday was a good example. We couldn't get past the 25 when we returned what looked like good opportunities for returns, yet the Rams would still get the ball past the 30-35 when catching the ball deep in the end zone.

Even when the Rams had a 15 yard penalty, we only got it back to the 25. When you're giving away 10-15 yards of field position every single possession, it makes it very difficult for the team compete well with good teams.

I appreciate that you want to be the voice of reason, but I think 90% of us know where you stand on this. There's plenty of room for debate on this issue and with the new coach and extra time to prep for this game, there's no doubt people are gonna evaluate the STs play. Comes with the territory.

I sure hope we see improvement and most people here genuinely want McMahon to do well, however, if there is continued poor play, then criticism is fair game.

FWIW, just because people are commenting on the STs play doesn't mean they're not enjoying the victory or applauding the successes of the team. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

[LombardiGras]

We really have to figure out the return game. Not only did Tommy Lee muff a punt, even Byrd failed at his duty to fair catch the ball. It's like nobody we put back there can get the job done. And the Saints gave up a big kick off return.

For the posters who are too sensitive to discuss the team's shortcomings, my advice would be to relax a little bit. Don't take it so personally when somebody mentions that special teams are an area in need of glaring improvement. It's only the truth, and we won big so it shouldn't upset you that much to face the truth.

 

[crosswatt]

If that's happening, my suggestion would be to avoid threads discussing STs, because the criticism isn't going to go away until we see significant improvement there.

Poor STs play isn't a recent development. It's been going on pretty much since McMahon got here. Also, just because some of the rest of the league is doing terrible doesn't excuse McMahon and our STs for their poor play. Yesterday was a good example. We couldn't get past the 25 when we returned what looked like good opportunities for returns, yet the Rams would still get the ball past the 30-35 when catching the ball deep in the end zone.

Even when the Rams had a 15 yard penalty, we only got it back to the 25. When you're giving away 10-15 yards of field position every single possession, it makes it very difficult for the team compete well with good teams.

I appreciate that you want to be the voice of reason, but I think 90% of us know where you stand on this. There's plenty of room for debate on this issue and with the new coach and extra time to prep for this game, there's no doubt people are gonna evaluate the STs play. Comes with the territory.

I sure hope we see improvement and most people here genuinely want McMahon to do well, however, if there is continued poor play, then criticism is fair game.

That's not true, and part of the issue. It hasn't been bad "since McMahon got here." I mean, that's is not even close to accurate. But it has been said so much arounfmd here that it is often accepted as a truth. Special teams have never been a strength, but it was always the complimentary phase of the game to the dominant offense that it was meant to be.

If we really want to analyze this, the real failings started around the time Stan Kwan got here. But the team feels by its actions that he and McMahon were doing their job properly. As well as every other coach that survived the staff purge. Now, they feel that help was needed, and acted accordingly. That's going to need more than one week to see if it pays dividends though.

But you're right in this point. Much of the current criticism is valid, as the squad has not been performing at the level we want to see it at. And everyone involved has some skin in the game, from Payton to the players to McMahon and Kwan.

And I'll stop there, as you are also right in that 90% of the board knows how I feel and really doesn't like hearing my thoughts on the matter anymore.

 

[DaveXA]

That's not true, and part of the issue. It hasn't been bad "since McMahon got here." I mean, that's is not even close to accurate. But it has been said so much arounfmd here that it is often accepted as a truth. Special teams have never been a strength, but it was always the complimentary phase of the game to the dominant offense that it was meant to be.

If we really want to analyze this, the real failings started around the time Stan Kwan got here. But the team feels by its actions that he and McMahon were doing their job properly. As well as every other coach that survived the staff purge. Now, they feel that help was needed, and acted accordingly. That's going to need more than one week to see if it pays dividends though.

But you're right in this point. Much of the current criticism is valid, as the squad has not been performing at the level we want to see it at. And everyone involved has some skin in the game, from Payton to the players to McMahon and Kwan.

And I'll stop there, as you are also right in that 90% of the board knows how I feel and really doesn't like hearing my thoughts on the matter anymore.

Well, personally, I have no problem with your opinion. In fact, I respect your point of view, however, you have to expect to be challenged when you're defending an unpopular position.

Don't let the criticism get to you. Keep posting and I hope your confidence in McMahon is warranted because I'd rather see him do well. He's got a lot of work to do to convince people he's not the source of the ST's poor play. It's the life of a coach though.

 

[crosswatt]

We really have to figure out the return game. Not only did Tommy Lee muff a punt, even Byrd failed at his duty to fair catch the ball. It's like nobody we put back there can get the job done. And the Saints gave up a big kick off return.

For the posters who are too sensitive to discuss the team's shortcomings, my advice would be to relax a little bit. Don't take it so personally when somebody mentions that special teams are an area in need of glaring improvement. It's only the truth, and we won big so it shouldn't upset you that much to face the truth.

No one's too sensitive to discuss the team's failings. I just don't agree with much of what is said about the reason why the special teams aren't playing well, and thought it was an odd choice to bring it up after such a dominant and entertaining of a game. And said as much.

 

[NorfolkedSaint]

It actually has nothing to do with liking or not liking criticism. It has to do with not liking tired or unwarranted criticism.

Yes, there is valid criticism towards the special teams. But it appears to be a league-wide issue, especially if you look at the Broncos game last night. Or during the Carolina game, where Graham Gano had an extra point blocked.

And in a statement game where there were really very few negatives, it just seems like an odd thing to bring that back up as the main thing we wish to complain about.

And the complaints that O'Dea didn't fix anything yet, just seemed premature to me. He's only been there one week, and his specialty was the snap/hold/kick process. Not necessarily coverage, or other issues that seem to be plaguing that facet of the team.


Payton's obviously not going to be firing anybody. The team obviously believes that it has made the necessary adjustments to improve that unit going forward. So I just seems like wasted effort to complain about it to me. Especially after a game like that.

But I know I'm in the minority, and I'm going to do my best to quit discussing special teams on this board. Because it doesn't do anybody any good to complain about it, and it certainly doesn't do anybody any good to have me try to assuage those concerns.

I rest my case

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