Hey guys, lets talk football (1 Viewer)

[Marlboro Man]

Could you elaborate

Yes. I'd consider 3 pro bowlers out of the lineup and your starting MLB out as injury riddled.

a bit more on that? I don't get to read a lot of that kind of stuff and it seems to me that those guys were hurt during the game instead of before the game, but like I said I'm not sure of that or who they were. Still, they had two of the best corners in the game playing and their safeties aren't garbage either so you're saying that they didn't have their starting MLB in the game? Who else didn't start the game for them if you don't mind?

Also, how has Poz been playing for ya'll, are you happy with his production and glad you drafted him? I was high on him before the draft but we had other needs that were more pressing.

Hope the weather is one of those "PERFECT" football days up there next Sunday, and I expect another good game with hopefully no serious injuries to either team. I'm thinking it's going to be something like 41-21 Saints. We'll try to do what we can against the Jets and Pats for ya though.

 

[efil4stnias]

a bit more on that? I don't get to read a lot of that kind of stuff and it seems to me that those guys were hurt during the game instead of before the game, but like I said I'm not sure of that or who they were. Still, they had two of the best corners in the game playing and their safeties aren't garbage either so you're saying that they didn't have their starting MLB in the game? Who else didn't start the game for them if you don't mind?

Also, how has Poz been playing for ya'll, are you happy with his production and glad you drafted him? I was high on him before the draft but we had other needs that were more pressing.

Hope the weather is one of those "PERFECT" football days up there next Sunday, and I expect another good game with hopefully no serious injuries to either team. I'm thinking it's going to be something like 41-21 Saints. We'll try to do what we can against the Jets and Pats for ya though.

Pozluzny is out 6-8 weeks - broken hand or wrist- something.

Now I just see where Mckelvin may be injured, a starting tackle and two TE ( leaving them with just one TE on roster )

Jeez, could the stars align any more?

 

[kentish_man]

I don't get a chance to see the Saints that often. What is the reason Reggie isn't the player everyone thought he'd be? His vision? Physicality? I hope the guy can turn it around. I loved watching him make defenders look foolish in college.

Vision's getting better. Physicality is the big problem. He cannot run between the tackles when there is not a big enough gap. If DL's and LB's get a piece of him, he's down. But if he can sneak through the DL and have space to juke the LB's and S's he can go long. As a decoy he's outstanding, see Colston's TD on the the fake pitch to him. I was also encouraged with a stiff arm to keep a defender at bay around the right side. On the other hand both Bell & Thomas can churn a 4-5 yd gain in traffic up the middle where Reggie will be stopped for a 1-2 yd gain.

 

[mmule]

That can mean a good thing. Maybe opposing QBs are afraid to throw his way. Like the weird named guy for da Raiders.

Just a thought

Pretty sure that was his point. you don't hear his name so he's doing very well.
Kinda like not hearing an Offensive Lineman being a good thing. The only time they get called out is if they get beat or get a penalty.

 

[xboomer]

I keep thinking back to that Tampa game where it was pouring down and our game plan was to pass during that storm. We ended up winning but it was a close game.

The early weather forcast is for wind and rain on Sunday so get ready for a repeat except the Bills will win this one.

 

[TCUDan]

I think, as a Bills fan, you have to be nervous playing the Saints seeing as a) you're suffering some injuries (Leodis McKelvin on defense comes to mind) and you're ranked 31st in pass defense going into a game where you'll be facing one of the most productive passing offenses in NFL history.

That said, I don't put too much stock into rankings two weeks into the season. Against New England, the nature of the game plan gave the Patriots easy yards underneath and Brady threw the ball 50ish times, so the stats are undoubtedly a bit skewed. You should have won that game.

However, the problem you'll face with the Saints is that a similar gameplan will not be effective. When you're playing one of the most explosive YAC teams in the league, over-the-top coverage is not a winning formula. It may be end up being the least ineffective strategy (I happen to think that coming with a blitz-heavy gameplan is a formula for a quick death), but it's not going to significantly slow the offense down... especially a more balanced Saints' offense.

For the Bills, I really do like Trent Edwards and he will obviously be the best passer we've faced so far this season. Owens, Evans, and Reed are all good receivers. The Bills O-line is inexperienced and has some injury concerns, but the Saints haven't displayed a dominant pass rush yet this season.

Overall, I think the Saints match up very well against the Bills, but like I said last week (they matched up well against the Eagles too), anything can happen and if the Saints turn the ball over 2 or 3 times in a half, the Bills could definitely capitalize and win the game.

As for your Reggie Bush question (and yes, this may very well start a fire on the forum), most outside sources that you'll read misinterpret his deficiencies. Bush can run between the tackles just fine. His problems have to do with striking the right balance of patience and decisiveness. Teams tend to counter his inside runs by playing gap control and being conservative in their pursuit, forcing him to hesitate in the backfield and protecting themselves form overpursuing him. His vision and toughness/etc. are all fine... it's really mental. Reggie is also very much a confidence player. He had a beautiful 19-yard TD run late in the Philadelphia game... a run that if he would have made earlier in the game on one of his first carries, he probably would have doubled his rushing yardage for that game (because he would have been running more confidently and more decisively for the rest of the game).

But yea, like some have already said... Reggie has definitely been a victim of the hype surrounding him in the draft.

 

[Bills Fan]

I think, as a Bills fan, you have to be nervous playing the Saints seeing as a) you're suffering some injuries (Leodis McKelvin on defense comes to mind) and you're ranked 31st in pass defense going into a game where you'll be facing one of the most productive passing offenses in NFL history.

That said, I don't put too much stock into rankings two weeks into the season. Against New England, the nature of the game plan gave the Patriots easy yards underneath and Brady threw the ball 50ish times, so the stats are undoubtedly a bit skewed. You should have won that game.

However, the problem you'll face with the Saints is that a similar gameplan will not be effective. When you're playing one of the most explosive YAC teams in the league, over-the-top coverage is not a winning formula. It may be end up being the least ineffective strategy (I happen to think that coming with a blitz-heavy gameplan is a formula for a quick death), but it's not going to significantly slow the offense down... especially a more balanced Saints' offense.

For the Bills, I really do like Trent Edwards and he will obviously be the best passer we've faced so far this season. Owens, Evans, and Reed are all good receivers. The Bills O-line is inexperienced and has some injury concerns, but the Saints haven't displayed a dominant pass rush yet this season.

Overall, I think the Saints match up very well against the Bills, but like I said last week (they matched up well against the Eagles too), anything can happen and if the Saints turn the ball over 2 or 3 times in a half, the Bills could definitely capitalize and win the game.

As for your Reggie Bush question (and yes, this may very well start a fire on the forum), most outside sources that you'll read misinterpret his deficiencies. Bush can run between the tackles just fine. His problems have to do with striking the right balance of patience and decisiveness. Teams tend to counter his inside runs by playing gap control and being conservative in their pursuit, forcing him to hesitate in the backfield and protecting themselves form overpursuing him. His vision and toughness/etc. are all fine... it's really mental. Reggie is also very much a confidence player. He had a beautiful 19-yard TD run late in the Philadelphia game... a run that if he would have made earlier in the game on one of his first carries, he probably would have doubled his rushing yardage for that game (because he would have been running more confidently and more decisively for the rest of the game).

But yea, like some have already said... Reggie has definitely been a victim of the hype surrounding him in the draft.

I'm in no way expecting a Bills win this Sunday. I do think the Saints offense can be beaten, I just don't think the Bills have the personnel to execute it.

The Bills' defense actually matches up well with a team relying on YAC. If there is one thing our players on defense do well, it's tackle. You can't beat the Patriots unless you're able to tackle Welker and their underneath routes. In beating the Saints, coverage over the top and tackling the underneath receivers upon possession is a start. It's the other half I don't think the Bills have.

To beat the Saints, you've got to be able to get pressure with your front 4 lineman. Blitzing is a recipe for disaster, and dropping your men in coverage will allow Bell, Thomas and Bush to take advantage like they have been. I'm not sure the Bills have the pass rushers to get pressure with just them alone, but we'll see. We were able to do it against New England, so you never know.

If the Bills play the safeties back, make the tackles on the underneath throws, and can get pressure with the front 4, I think they can stiffle the Saints' offense just enough to allow our offense to score more points.

We were able to execute that gameplan perfectly against the Patriots, but I think the Saints' offense is firing on more cylinders right now. Pressure with the front 4 is the key to everything. I don't know how much Schobel has left in the tank, and Maybin has shown nothing so far this season. Stroud and Kyle Williams have been excellent at providing pressure up the middle.

I think the Saints win.

 

[Striker]

The Bills also placed OT starter Butler on injured reserved, and I believe just picked up an OT from Green Bay's practice squad. Just heard this morning on the radio. Any more details or verification about this from the Bills fan, or anyone else? Seems like a big loss.....Thanks,Striker

 

[Bills Fan]

The Bills also placed OT starter Butler on injured reserved, and I believe just picked up an OT from Green Bay's practice squad. Just heard this morning on the radio. Any more details or verification about this from the Bills fan, or anyone else? Seems like a big loss.....Thanks,Striker

Yes, all true. We picked up Jamon Meredith off Green Bay's practice squad. He won't be playing... at all, but I'm excited about the move. Many thought he'd go in the 2nd round. Now we got him for nothing. Same can be said about LB Marcus Freeman, we signed him this morning as well.

The starting RT will be Jonathan Scott.

 

[Lucketty]

I think, as a Bills fan, you have to be nervous playing the Saints seeing as a) you're suffering some injuries (Leodis McKelvin on defense comes to mind) and you're ranked 31st in pass defense going into a game where you'll be facing one of the most productive passing offenses in NFL history.

That said, I don't put too much stock into rankings two weeks into the season. Against New England, the nature of the game plan gave the Patriots easy yards underneath and Brady threw the ball 50ish times, so the stats are undoubtedly a bit skewed. You should have won that game.

However, the problem you'll face with the Saints is that a similar gameplan will not be effective. When you're playing one of the most explosive YAC teams in the league, over-the-top coverage is not a winning formula. It may be end up being the least ineffective strategy (I happen to think that coming with a blitz-heavy gameplan is a formula for a quick death), but it's not going to significantly slow the offense down... especially a more balanced Saints' offense.

For the Bills, I really do like Trent Edwards and he will obviously be the best passer we've faced so far this season. Owens, Evans, and Reed are all good receivers. The Bills O-line is inexperienced and has some injury concerns, but the Saints haven't displayed a dominant pass rush yet this season.

Overall, I think the Saints match up very well against the Bills, but like I said last week (they matched up well against the Eagles too), anything can happen and if the Saints turn the ball over 2 or 3 times in a half, the Bills could definitely capitalize and win the game.

As for your Reggie Bush question (and yes, this may very well start a fire on the forum), most outside sources that you'll read misinterpret his deficiencies. Bush can run between the tackles just fine. His problems have to do with striking the right balance of patience and decisiveness. Teams tend to counter his inside runs by playing gap control and being conservative in their pursuit, forcing him to hesitate in the backfield and protecting themselves form overpursuing him. His vision and toughness/etc. are all fine... it's really mental. Reggie is also very much a confidence player. He had a beautiful 19-yard TD run late in the Philadelphia game... a run that if he would have made earlier in the game on one of his first carries, he probably would have doubled his rushing yardage for that game (because he would have been running more confidently and more decisively for the rest of the game).

But yea, like some have already said... Reggie has definitely been a victim of the hype surrounding him in the draft.

This is correct, but is only part of Reggie's problem. The other part is purely physical-- he can't break arm tackles, he has very little in terms of leg drive, you only have to get a piece of him to bring him down. This is the key to running in the NFL running inside and outside, as the yard a guy like Pierre Thomas gets from churning his legs or the yard Mike Bell gets from engaging and spinning off of a defender, Reggie Bush physically can't get. It isn't a toughness issue, it's an issue of lower body strength and build. Fans often misinterpret running powerfully with trucking guys in the open field, when this is a pretty unimportant aspect of being an NFL running back albeit fun to watch. What's more important, what got guys like Emmitt Smith and Curtis Martin yards despite not being big or very fast, was being able to have leg drive and balance and get an extra yard or half a yard after contact consistently. Reggie doesn't have it. When you combine this with ball security issues and the vision/decisiveness issues you end up with a pretty inefficient runner.

 

[Paul]

As for your Reggie Bush question (and yes, this may very well start a fire on the forum), most outside sources that you'll read misinterpret his deficiencies. Bush can run between the tackles just fine. His problems have to do with striking the right balance of patience and decisiveness. Teams tend to counter his inside runs by playing gap control and being conservative in their pursuit, forcing him to hesitate in the backfield and protecting themselves form overpursuing him. His vision and toughness/etc. are all fine... it's really mental. Reggie is also very much a confidence player. He had a beautiful 19-yard TD run late in the Philadelphia game... a run that if he would have made earlier in the game on one of his first carries, he probably would have doubled his rushing yardage for that game (because he would have been running more confidently and more decisively for the rest of the game).

But yea, like some have already said... Reggie has definitely been a victim of the hype surrounding him in the draft.

This is correct, but is only part of Reggie's problem. The other part is purely physical-- he can't break arm tackles, he has very little in terms of leg drive, you only have to get a piece of him to bring him down. This is the key to running in the NFL running inside and outside, as the yard a guy like Pierre Thomas gets from churning his legs or the yard Mike Bell gets from engaging and spinning off of a defender, Reggie Bush physically can't get. It isn't a toughness issue, it's an issue of lower body strength and build. Fans often misinterpret running powerfully with trucking guys in the open field, when this is a pretty unimportant aspect of being an NFL running back albeit fun to watch. What's more important, what got guys like Emmitt Smith and Curtis Martin yards despite not being big or very fast, was being able to have leg drive and balance and get an extra yard or half a yard after contact consistently. Reggie doesn't have it. When you combine this with ball security issues and the vision/decisiveness issues you end up with a pretty inefficient runner.

Wow, does anyone see how masterfully crafted these posts are? Critical? - Yes. Offensive? - No. Taking sides, bashing the player? - No. Truth? - Yes. Posts like these are what spark more civil discussions when describing a player's attributes and areas that need improvement/weaknesses, and cuts out all of that other back and forth BS we've dealt with since 2006. They don't reek of childish jealousy, hatred, or intentional rudeness toward the player or other posters.

Great posts Dan & Lucketty; thanks for that.

 

[Rugger]

I'm in no way expecting a Bills win this Sunday. I do think the Saints offense can be beaten, I just don't think the Bills have the personnel to execute it.

The Bills' defense actually matches up well with a team relying on YAC. If there is one thing our players on defense do well, it's tackle. You can't beat the Patriots unless you're able to tackle Welker and their underneath routes. In beating the Saints, coverage over the top and tackling the underneath receivers upon possession is a start. It's the other half I don't think the Bills have.

To beat the Saints, you've got to be able to get pressure with your front 4 lineman. Blitzing is a recipe for disaster, and dropping your men in coverage will allow Bell, Thomas and Bush to take advantage like they have been. I'm not sure the Bills have the pass rushers to get pressure with just them alone, but we'll see. We were able to do it against New England, so you never know.

If the Bills play the safeties back, make the tackles on the underneath throws, and can get pressure with the front 4, I think they can stiffle the Saints' offense just enough to allow our offense to score more points.

We were able to execute that gameplan perfectly against the Patriots, but I think the Saints' offense is firing on more cylinders right now. Pressure with the front 4 is the key to everything. I don't know how much Schobel has left in the tank, and Maybin has shown nothing so far this season. Stroud and Kyle Williams have been excellent at providing pressure up the middle.

I think the Saints win.

I think you have to rush five on our offense. I am of the belief that if you can get pressure right up the gut, Drew has a hard time getting the ball out. He also like to step up in the pocket when possible. We have seen Drew have off games. Often when he is pressed, he presses back. When he gets picked, he sometimes tries to force another throw to make up for it. That has not happened this year, but it has in the past.

I also think Payton has finally gained confidence in the running game. We have the ability to move the ball on the ground. It takes pressure off of Brees to have to make every first down.

In the passing game the to guys that I think will give you trouble in this game is Lance Moore (Wes Welker) and Shockey (Watson). Looking at the Pats game, I do not think you guys did a great job on Welker, but he , Welker, had a lot of drops and Brady was off. If we send our WRs vertical, with the cushion you guys give, and you guys continue to play safety over the top...I think Shockey and Moore can get a lot of underneath catches with some YAC.

 

[Lucketty]

I think you have to rush five on our offense. I am of the belief that if you can get pressure right up the gut, Drew has a hard time getting the ball out. He also like to step up in the pocket when possible. We have seen Drew have off games. Often when he is pressed, he presses back. When he gets picked, he sometimes tries to force another throw to make up for it. That has not happened this year, but it has in the past.

I also think Payton has finally gained confidence in the running game. We have the ability to move the ball on the ground. It takes pressure off of Brees to have to make every first down.

In the passing game the to guys that I think will give you trouble in this game is Lance Moore (Wes Welker) and Shockey (Watson). Looking at the Pats game, I do not think you guys did a great job on Welker, but he , Welker, had a lot of drops and Brady was off. If we send our WRs vertical, with the cushion you guys give, and you guys continue to play safety over the top...I think Shockey and Moore can get a lot of underneath catches with some YAC.

I don't think Lance Moore is much like Welker at all. Welker does most of his damage after the catch and is a dynamic athlete, whereas Moore will rarely do anything after the catch (with one notable exception against Green Bay.) I think a better comparison is a poor man's Marvin Harrison. Like Harrison, Moore relies on precise route-running, sure hands and special body control; also like Harrison, he's not going to do much after the catch.

 

[diehard]

Honestly, what's making the Saints O even better than last year is its health and the reemergence of the power run element for Payton's gameplanning.

With Bell out, the key will be for Thomas to replace the heavy lifting. If we run effectively then I like their chances to hang at least 30 in decent weather. I really don't see any team stopping this O if we can run.

Defensively, despite national skepticism, they're capable of keeping most O's to around 20 or less considering how one dimensional they must become to keep up in the second half.

Let me close with saying I like what the Bills are doing with their roster. Good talent across the board and I was an Edwards fan when he came out. Looks like he's really developing.

 

[TCUDan]

This is correct, but is only part of Reggie's problem. The other part is purely physical-- he can't break arm tackles, he has very little in terms of leg drive, you only have to get a piece of him to bring him down. This is the key to running in the NFL running inside and outside, as the yard a guy like Pierre Thomas gets from churning his legs or the yard Mike Bell gets from engaging and spinning off of a defender, Reggie Bush physically can't get. It isn't a toughness issue, it's an issue of lower body strength and build. Fans often misinterpret running powerfully with trucking guys in the open field, when this is a pretty unimportant aspect of being an NFL running back albeit fun to watch. What's more important, what got guys like Emmitt Smith and Curtis Martin yards despite not being big or very fast, was being able to have leg drive and balance and get an extra yard or half a yard after contact consistently. Reggie doesn't have it. When you combine this with ball security issues and the vision/decisiveness issues you end up with a pretty inefficient runner.

You're right about the leg drive... but Bush is a very strong player. I think the deficiency may have more to do with style/leverage (or lack thereof). You watch a guy like Brian Westbrook run inside and he runs with really good leverage. Some players (like Mike Bell) can run upright with a high pad level and still break tackles because they keep their knees high. Bush (and this is not saying that he should play WR) at times runs like a WR through the hole. WRs are coached to run upright (sprinting) whereas, as a back running betw. the tackles, you need to maintain good leverage.

So I don't think he's necessarily too weak/small to run inside... I've seen him push a pile and show flashes of proper leg drive. But you're right that he doesn't really "churn" so to speak... he finishes runs/tries to extend plays with a strong push and then that's it.

Anyway, if he can improve his leverage and leg drive, I think he'll be a decent inside runner. And I do believe he has adequate leg strength, but there's of course no way to prove that one way or the other without seeing his squat numbers (I know he had one of the best bench presses of any RB in the draft, and I would assume he doesn't JUST focus on his upper body).