Saints Honesty, is it the technique or coaching? (1 Viewer)

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Now that Saints are on a bye, I'm clearly wondering if they are really gonna fix somethings or are we gonna see the same product from last 5 weeks. I'll bring up the secondary. Ok its been 4 years for Marcus Williams and his numbers have been down. Guys are consistently getting burnt and out of position. Hmmm COMMUNICATION perhaps. Also I wonder when the same mistakes are happening over and over does Dennis Allen and Aaron Glenn correct it or just don't do anything? What are they coaching? Is Defense to complicated and need to be simplified? I don't get it. Over and over and Redzone defense dead last 🤦🏾‍♂️. Please help me understand.
 
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We’ve got two guys in the secondary that have been to Super Bowls, two others that have been to the pro bowl, a very good player in CGJ, and we still look like hot garbage. Marcus Williams doesn’t look good to me, but he has played solid ball in the past, with some occasional big mistakes. Bottom line, I don’t understand how it could be the talent. I bet most of our secondary players could excel on other teams, so it leads me to believe our scheme isn’t working or the coaching isn’t up to par.
 

Marty_Graw

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Honesty, is just...being honest; shouldn't require any technique or coaching.

Allegedly, it's a lonely word but I've never been quite sure why. However, I refuse to go to extremes to find out.
 

SaintsIn2009

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Technique is taught and perfected by coaches. No?
Agreed but at what point do you stop teaching a grown man how to tackle or to locate the ball when defending? I was taught that in middle school! Wrap up! Blanket the receiver and locate the ball when defending. These are the basics! Not only professional taught secrets. If it’s scheme I get it, but to have no clue on the above mentioned issues? No excuse
 

St.Fury

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Agreed but at what point do you stop teaching a grown man how to tackle or to locate the ball when defending? I was taught that in middle school! Wrap up! Blanket the receiver and locate the ball when defending. These are the basics! Not only professional taught secrets. If it’s scheme I get it, but to have no clue on the above mentioned issues? No excuse
I agree. It’s really on both the player and the coaches. players that don’t hold themselves accountable will slip in technique. Coaches that don’t hold those players accountable allow that to happen.
 

dutar76

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I think it's obviously scheme, or at least how Dennis Allen's scheme normally is for the first 4 games. It seems like we're always having this same exact discussion around the first week or so of October, then it goes away. Maybe there was a one week lag (hopefully just one) this season due to preseason not giving DA the time before week one to work out at least a few of the bugs.

It's almost like he coaches in reverse. Starts the season out dumping as much complexity into the scheme as possible to see what sticks, then reduces it down to only what works. That's going by the general fan consensus every year around this time, when the defense starts clicking, that he "simplified" the scheme.

But if all I had to go on was THIS season, I'd think that it's either a discipline or an effort problem. Penalties can happen because guys are out of position and foul when they panic or are trying to get back into the play. But a lot of our penalties have simply been bone headed. Same with many of our defense's busted plays. Multiple missed tackles by guys who are normally good tacklers. Guys in chase mode taking bad angles. Front 7 guys biting completely on play action and misdirection plays. DBs letting their eyes be fooled. Lattimore (in particular) biting on double moves and feints. All that just feels to me like players who aren't preparing themselves mentally or physically for games.

All defenses give up big plays from time to time, but we're giving up a huge amounts of 3rd downs. And when we do make a stop, it feels like a disproportionate amount of them are negated by penalties. That's just sloppy football. Is that coaching? I'd say yes if this was a bunch of high school or college kids, but these are veteran players. Pro-bowlers and Superbowl winners. They should not have to be coached out of playing sloppy.

I guess, after typing it all out... I just don't know. I do know that it seems like every year at this time, we hear that Lattimore is saying he's embarrassed by his performance, and then he seems to pick it up. Maybe he gets it in his head during the offseason that he's this great corner, and that he can have success even without giving full effort. Then he wakes up and puts in the work and spends the rest of the season being that great corner.
 

abnrgr

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It’s coaching IMO. If guys are messing up them DA needs to hold them accountable (bench them) or adjust the scheme. He didn’t seem to do either. I just watched the 2009 NFC championship and I saw a legit scheme. It was aggressive pressure and forcing turnovers. They didn’t have superior players. If I had to point out one thing we currently don’t have it’s that FS from 2009. Need an upgrade at that position. Look if the secondary can’t hold up then we need to bring heat.
 
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IMHO, it's silly to think on terms of one or the other.

So I'd say it's a combo of coaching and techinque.
 
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BarBar

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Mostly coaching.

Our guys are out of position soooo often that theae big plays are easy. Guys are running free all over the place.

If the players cannot understand the scheme enough to run it then your scheme SUCKS.

We need major changes on the D side of the ball. We have plenty of talent on the field but they are never in the right place at the right time, which negates all that talent.
 

Saintman2884

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Mostly coaching.

Our guys are out of position soooo often that theae big plays are easy. Guys are running free all over the place.

If the players cannot understand the scheme enough to run it then your scheme SUCKS.

We need major changes on the D side of the ball. We have plenty of talent on the field but they are never in the right place at the right time, which negates all that talent.
I agree with 90-95% of this statement, other than sometimes in some cases with past NFL teams throughout NFL history, it wasnt always so much the schemes or the DC running it that were the problem, or that certain teams didnt have enough good, talented players it's just defenses like the Flex defense used by Landry's Cowboys, Dick Nolan's early 70's Niners teams and disastrously for his 78-80 Saints teams, or Buddy Ryan's 46 defense. The problem wasn't that both of these particular defensive schemes weren't dominant or effective it was just both were complex, highly nuanced systems that needed smart, intelligent players and maybe more time to learn than other defenses to learn. In the 46 defense, you need a smart, tough, but commanding Mike LB to make it run well. In Chicago, it was Mike Singletary, in Philadelphia in late 80s/early 90s, IIRC, it was Seth Joyner, the Flex defense run by Landry had a rogue's gallery of HOF players to make his schemes work. Who did we have to make it work effectively in late 70's? Joe Federspiel? Please.

In this case, if our defense has maybe 3, 4, or 5 Pro Bowl caliber players or former Pro Bowlers that are struggling to learn and adapt to a DC whose schemes tend to mostly put them out of position, one doesn't need to have a high football IQ to realize most of the defense's problems are coming from the DC himself.

I will say that I've noticed a few quirks our defenses have shown where we have players, D-linemen, one or two LBs who are a bit jumpy, impulsive and a little impatient in not playing smarter by not over-pursuing opposing RBs. Our DBs and CBs also tend to be a little over-aggressive and that leads them to be played for saps whenever opposing QBs throw deep balls and WRs intentionally lure or cause them to fall into them for passing interference calls. That's a petty, bullshirt way of playing sure, but it does illustrate obvious long-running trends or habits of our defense, at it's best, can play inspiring, hard-driving defense but is prone to making a lot of mental mistakes and opposing teams have taken advantage of it like the Rams and especially the Vikings last year in the playoffs.
 

EvilMike

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Coaching, but also something else in the Saints organization. We had several defensive coordinators with the same results.
 

Westbank4Life

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in regards to the secondary...I'll say this MT shouldn't be swinging on his teammates but he definitely needs to KEEP calling them out for their pro bowl efforts against him in practice to shut him down and get in his skin but during game time they are out there looking Absolutely lost in coverages.

The things I've seen out there are 100% communication and mental breakdowns no matter the coverage DA calls in the packages.

I'm still wondering how Williams was just standing there ordering a pizza when allen was heading at him like a freight train on the intermediate route for that td.

Still blows my mind. You gotta move and finish his route asap and force his big behind to slow down and re route him......either way slow his big butt down.

And p rob peeking about to jump a route then points over to the safety on the other td. That was Highschool 101. You have that talk in the huddle guys and if they did and prob still didn't get top help from the safety....smh....saints are doomed

They need to be watching film in a zoom meeting right now lol
 

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