How do you feel about the offense and our offensive pieces going into the season? (1 Viewer)

[Rouxble]

One thing that has been said about Carr is when he senses pressure, he will either get happy feet or take the dump off to avoid getting hit (a lot of Raiders fans were saying that this started after breaking his leg in 2016).



One thing that's missed in this is Andrews getting destroyed immediately, whiffing on his block. The question we would need to know is what does Carr do in that situation considering a D Lineman is running straight towards him and he has the checkdown. I just hope that we don't see anyone getting blown out at the line like that this season and give him a chance to make the play.

This reminds me of yet another Saints play, where Dalton had Olave wide open over the top during a scramble drill, but he frantically searched for the checkdown instead of taking a more aggressive read of the situation and throwing downfield.

And I think your point is that if PC doesn't deserve all the fault for Dalton's mistakes, neither does McDaniels when Carr doesn't execute the offense in the optimal way (hence the example of Stidham throwing downfield in a situation where you think Carr would check down). I would have to agree with you on that one, it takes both QB and OC working well together for success. In a McDaniels offense, it also takes the receivers being on the same page since he is heavy on option concepts.

 

[jahsoul357]

The only question we need to know is will Carr run the offense, especially pre-snap reads, better than last year's QB's.

Carr's not perfect. No QB ever has been or ever will be. Fortunately, Carr doesn't have to be perfect to help improve the Saints offense. Carr just has to better than last year's QB's, especially with pre-snap decisions, for the Saints offense to be better.

Has it been said about Carr that he doesn't handle pre-snap decisions as well as last year's QB's? Have a lot of Raiders fans been saying that?

All I've heard from NFL professionals is that Carr is really good at pre-snap decisions. The primary reason that last year's QB's struggled was because they struggled with pre-snap decisions. One of the primary reasons for the Saints success with Brees was due to Brees's ability to make the most advantageous pre-snap decisions. That's supposedly one of Carr's strengths as well. I haven't seen or heard anyone say that Carr struggles with pre-snap decisions.

Carmichael runs, and helped create, an offensive system that gives the QB a group of plays that contains at least one play that can exploit any defense they might face on a given down. If the QB is good at reading pre-snap what the defense is going to do, then they can run the play that gives them an advantage versus that defense.

Getting those pre-snap decisions right on a consistent basis will go a lot further to improving the Saints offense than any post-snap skills will.

Carr doesn't have to be perfect for the Saints to have improved QB play within their play calling system.

All that pre-snap stuff sounds great until we realize that it magically disappears when he hits the red zone and he turns out to run some of the lowest scoring offenses with bottom tier TD rates, and in that regard "improved QB play" goes out the window when we consider how we lost many games last season and that's not all on Dalton. There were so many questions personnel/play calling decisions in the red zone outside of Dalton. So we expect a QB who has been horrible in the red zone to magically fix that issue when we have coaching who draws up horrible plays in the red zone?

This reminds me of yet another Saints play, where Dalton had Olave wide open over the top during a scramble drill, but he frantically searched for the checkdown instead of taking a more aggressive read of the situation and throwing downfield.

And I think your point is that if PC doesn't deserve all the fault for Dalton's mistakes, neither does McDaniels when Carr doesn't execute the offense in the optimal way (hence the example of Stidham throwing downfield in a situation where you think Carr would check down). I would have to agree with you on that one, it takes both QB and OC working well together for success. In a McDaniels offense, it also takes the receivers being on the same page since he is heavy on option concepts.

Yep....that's exactly what I've been saying. The media has been pumping sunshine about Carr since the news came out. I love NOF, but maaaaaaaaaaaaan, since the signing.

lol

But most of us critiqued the crap out of QB last season placing the vast majority of the issues on them instead of the crappy scheme and play calling that PC was drawing up but when it comes to Carr, it's all McDaniel's fault? The computers ain't puting.. lol. And the crazy thing is, last season will actually go down as one of Carr's most productive as a Raider.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

It works both ways, PC would set up his QB for success only for the QB to take the most conservative throw.

I‘ve been reading up on Gruden’s and McDaniels’ offenses to learn more about Carr, and one random play caught my attention because I remembered it from our week 18 game. It’s a simple pick a side read, throw the dragon concept (slant/flat) against single high and throw the swing screen against two high.



Naturally, Dalton picks the side that maximizes his completion percentage, dumping it off to Kamara, while Olave runs in to this huge void created by the LB pursuing Kamara‘s route. Instead of an easy first down to put us in the red zone (or better), we missed a field goal soon after. These missed opportunities were a reoccurring theme all season. I think Carr hits the slant route all day, and these small differences can make a big difference In how an OC gets evaluated.

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Ngl thats a play design. It's set to micromanage who the ball is going to. Those 2 routes to the top weren't designed to be intended targets...it was either throw to Olave or dump off. Olave was the right read...but a QB with 4 guys running routes should have 4 feasible targets...he was only given 2. Crap play design IMO

 

[Rouxble]

Ngl thats a play design. It's set to micromanage who the ball is going to. Those 2 routes to the top weren't designed to be intended targets...it was either throw to Olave or dump off. Olave was the right read...but a QB with 4 guys running routes should have 4 feasible targets...he was only given 2. Crap play design IMO

Agree that the two guys at the top weren’t running routes, they were blocking the swing screen. All offenses are going to have staple plays to move the ball on early downs, and most of them aren’t going to be full field reads. This is one of the base plays, dragon is the primary concept and the backside of the play will vary to allow for different ways to attack two high looks.

We ran the same play against Minnesota, where Dalton threw a DOA slant when he should have thrown the screen. I find it funny since Dalton was claimed to be some savant coverage reader and Winston allegedly had nothing between the ears.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

All that pre-snap stuff sounds great until we realize that it magically disappears when he hits the red zone and he turns out to run some of the lowest scoring offenses with bottom tier TD rates, and in that regard "improved QB play" goes out the window when we consider how we lost many games last season and that's not all on Dalton. There were so many questions personnel/play calling decisions in the red zone outside of Dalton. So we expect a QB who has been horrible in the red zone to magically fix that issue when we have coaching who draws up horrible plays in the red zone?


Yep....that's exactly what I've been saying. The media has been pumping sunshine about Carr since the news came out. I love NOF, but maaaaaaaaaaaaan, since the signing.

lol

But most of us critiqued the crap out of QB last season placing the vast majority of the issues on them instead of the crappy scheme and play calling that PC was drawing up but when it comes to Carr, it's all McDaniel's fault? The computers ain't puting.. lol. And the crazy thing is, last season will actually go down as one of Carr's most productive as a Raider.

Bruh...why?

 

[Rouxble]

We ran the same play against Minnesota, where Dalton threw a DOA slant when he should have thrown the screen.

Let me rephrase that, we ran a similar play. The read is the same, take the slant on single high (1v1) and take the swing screen on two high. If Callaway makes the contested catch, he’s on a collision course with the LB in the curl zone, and a better LB may have tried to make a play on the ball. Notice the nice wall that is built for the RB to get a solid gain down the sideline. Next play was a sack followed by a punt.

Edit: It was 2nd and 3 for reference.

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[StudioSaint]

As Payton often said, it's not about getting the best players it's about getting the players that fit the best.

But most of us critiqued the crap out of QB last season placing the vast majority of the issues on them instead of the crappy scheme and play calling that PC was drawing up but when it comes to Carr, it's all McDaniel's fault?

It's not about blaming anyone for me, so this question creates an irrelevant strawman argument in regards to what I'm saying.

No QB's strong suits are a best fit for every offensive approach. Thinking that Carr's strong suits fit the Saints' offense better than last year's QB's is not a critique of which QB is a better or worse QB. It's just about fit.

These are my two basic thoughts to make it as clear and simple as possible for everyone.

1. Carr's strong suits fit better with the Saints' offensive approach, than they fit with McDaniel's offensive approach.

2. Carr's strong suits fit the Saints' offensive approach better than the strong suits of last year's QB's fit the Saints offensive approach.

That doesn't guarantee an improvement in the Saints offense, but it does give the Saints a better chance of improving on offense.

...the crappy scheme and play calling that PC was drawing up...

Have we seen the Saints playbook of plays that Carmicheal drew up?

Have we seen the actual print out of his game plans?

Have we sat in on any of the QB meetings?

Have we heard what Carmichael was saying to the QB's through the headset? Have we heard any of the discussions between the QB's and any of the offensive coaches?

If not, how can we be so certain that Carmichael had a crappy scheme and play calling?

If we see or hear something great or terrible in a TV show or movie, we don't know who was responsible for it. Bryan Cranston in a guest appearance as a dentist on Seinfeld took a hit of gas before putting the mask on another character. Everyone thought it was hilarious and brilliant on Cranston's part, but he just recently admitted that one of the grips suggested it to him.

Carmichael's scheme relies heavily on the QB picking the best play option from multiple plays after seeing what the defense shows. So if last year's play selection was crappy, last year's QB's contributed to that.

Conversely, McDaniel didn't let his QB's select a play from a group of plays, so all of the Raider's play selection were squarely on McDaniel.

 

[jahsoul357]

As Payton often said, it's not about getting the best players it's about getting the players that fit the best.

That's all cool and all but he built the offense around Drew

How'd Sean Payton and Drew Brees spend 15 years together? A rare duo built on 'mutual respect'

He might have seen it then, the way the next decade and a half would unfold, when Drew Brees first saw Sean Payton drawing up some offensive plays.

www.nola.com

From the article:

He might have seen it then, the way the next decade and a half would unfold, when Drew Brees first saw Sean Payton drawing up some offensive plays.

There, in that room, the brand-new head coach of the New Orleans Saints was diagramming the way his brand-new offense would look under the direction of his brand-new quarterback. Joining them was then-quarterbacks coach Pete Carmichael, who’d spent the previous four years with Brees in San Diego.

Brees expected to be challenged by unfamiliar concepts. Instead, he watched as Payton scribbled plays Brees ran during his first five seasons with the Chargers. A confused Brees interrupted him, telling Payton he was expecting to see some West Coast offensive principles. He didn’t know they ran these kinds of plays.

“And he said, ‘Well, we don’t,’ ” Brees recalled. “ ‘But I know this is what you do and this is what you’re really good at and it’s what you’re comfortable with. So we’re building this offense around you.

So maybe the best fit is for the offense that is built around the QB. Remember when everyone wanted to say we ran a "West Coast Offense."

It's not about blaming anyone for me, so this question creates an irrelevant strawman argument in regards to what I'm saying.

No QB's strong suits are a best fit for every offensive approach. Thinking that Carr's strong suits fit the Saints' offense better than last year's QB's is not a critique of which QB is a better or worse QB. It's just about fit.

These are my two basic thoughts to make it as clear and simple as possible for everyone.

1. Carr's strong suits fit better with the Saints' offensive approach, than they fit with McDaniel's offensive approach.

2. Carr's strong suits fit the Saints' offensive approach better than the strong suits of last year's QB's fit the Saints offensive approach.

Who said you were blaming anyone? I just said that everyone loves talking about that "pre-snap" stuff but ignore the fact that all that disappears when the field gets short. With all the sunshine pumping, that never gets brought up.

Have we seen the Saints playbook of plays that Carmicheal drew up?

Have we seen the actual print out of his game plans?

Have we sat in on any of the QB meetings?

Have we heard what Carmichael was saying to the QB's through the headset? Have we heard any of the discussions between the QB's and any of the offensive coaches?

If not, how can we be so certain that Carmichael had a crappy scheme and play calling?

If we see or hear something great or terrible in a TV show or movie, we don't know who was responsible for it. Bryan Cranston in a guest appearance as a dentist on Seinfeld took a hit of gas before putting the mask on another character. Everyone thought it was hilarious and brilliant on Cranston's part, but he just recently admitted that one of the grips suggested it to him.

Carmichael's scheme relies heavily on the QB picking the best play option from multiple plays after seeing what the defense shows. So if last year's play selection was crappy, last year's QB's contributed to that.

Conversely, McDaniel didn't let his QB's select a play from a group of plays, so all of the Raider's play selection were squarely on McDaniel.

Nope, we just saw the lack of motion, questionable personnel decisions, vanilla play calling, and trash bag red zone scheming. Is that on the QB?

 

[StudioSaint]

That's all cool and all but he built the offense around Drew

Yes, Payton built the offense around Drew. At the same time, Payton's first choice was Romo, because of his pre-snap decision making ability. Payton also had other QB's he could have pursued, like Culpepper. When he couldn't get Romo he went after Brees, because of Brees's pre-snap decision making. So even Payton, tries to get QB's with certain skillsets. The main reason he gave for liking Mahommes was Mahomme's pre-snap decision making.

The reason for that is Payton wants to give his QB a slate of plays to choose from with each play designed to exploit the weaknesses of a specific defense. That way the offense is never stuck running a play that gives the defense an advantage.

The Saints appear to be going the route of relying heavily on a QB making good pre-snap decisions. We don't know how successful or unsuccessful they will be doing it that way.

Nope, we just saw the lack of motion, questionable personnel decisions, vanilla play calling, and trash bag red zone scheming. Is that on the QB?

With both Payton and Carmichael, the QB plays a role in all of that happening or not.

For instance, say Carmichael gives a QB 4 plays to choose from and 3 of them have motion. If the QB chooses the 1 play with no motion and that was a bad play to run against how the defense was lined up, then how would the QB not be at least partly responsible for the bad play call?

Carmichael runs his offense in a way that relies on the QB making the final play call after seeing what the defense is showing, just like Payton prefers to do.

That doesn't guarantee or prove that the offense will be any better with Carr than it was with last year's QB's, but it does show that the Saints think Carr is a better QB fit for how Carmichael wants to run the offense.

Look at the offensive production in the season Payton was suspended to see how effective Carmichael is as an OC when he has a QB that is good at making the final play call after seeing the defensive alignment.