How Saints Fans feel about Jameis Winston (1 Viewer)

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MLU said:
Sure that will help, but the biggest improvement will be due to the transition from Dirk Letter and Bruce Arians to Sean Payton...
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That'll help, too...but dont discount being more comfortable physically and the ability to track things better.
 
Groovepro said:
I am hesitant trusting Winston with the ball in his hands most of the time throughout a season...and without the running ability, as well.

I am not a total "anti-Winston" as many would believe, I look at film and make as honest, truthful assessment as I can formulate from really understanding the QB position at a deep level. I can go with seen recently from Hill and only go with what I have seen in GAME snaps, including the 49ers game of Winston. So, I have to wait and see what Winston does coming up to truly evaluate him...but, I have a good feeling of where he will stand as NFL QB moving forward.

With Hill's progress as a QB, if you look at his 4 starts last season and look at previous years passing film (preseason and spot duty) his footwork is better and his throwing motion has changed. He had a kink in his release where he would "muscle" it and almost stop his over the top release to a sort of side arm follow through. He has progressed a lot more than people give him credit for.

I don't have the same "hard line stance" you have, but my "gut" is kinda with you.
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I'm more along the lines with you. For me this qb competition is the equivalent of picking between a Baker Mayfield type qb (Jameis Winston) or a Lamar/Tony Romo type qb (Taysom). Personally I will always choose the more dynamic player which is Jackson/Romo/Hill.
 
Reddoctober86 said:
I'm more along the lines with you. For me this qb competition is the equivalent of picking between a Baker Mayfield type qb (Jameis Winston) or a Lamar/Tony Romo type qb (Taysom). Personally I will always choose the more dynamic player which is Jackson/Romo/Hill.
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I can only go by what I have seen to assess. Hill HAS progressed in his QB play. His throwing motion and feet have changed from limited action in previous years (preseason and spot duty). He is accurate in short/intermediate and has a good deep ball. His 4 starts give me more promise (contrary to popular belief he DIDN'T just read one side of the field, made some great tight window throws, accurate, etc...held ball a few times longer than wanted a couple times...that wasn't his whole game and take away all the stuff he did RIGHT...with first time starting as full time QB, too) and optimism, just as QB than what I have seen from a LARGE collection of Winston in the NFL.

The 49ers game with Winston, he looked good early and checked down and made a few nice anticipation throws, but then he just started throwing the ball randomly as got more pressure (after sacked) and just got the "deer in the headlights" look and body language. Maybe he can get it all erased and re-invent himself, but that is a really tough go.

The things he naturally does are not because of bad coaching, bad system, bad WR's, bad eyesight...it is pure, "knee jerk" decision making. He has had good talent around him bail him out often with these low percentage "hope for the best" throws. Has he made some beautiful deep throws, YES...most are lined up straight and between the yd line numbers (ala the throw he made against TB on trick play). He reverts to the same decision making when the pressure starts to mount. I think we will always see that from him to some degree no matter how much he has progressed. There is a difference between being a "gunslinger" and going for a game changing 50/50 shot and just making a bad decision randomly. It is very deep in his DNA and hard to flush out. BUT, I am waiting to see how it all pans out. If he starts and still has the job after week 5, then he has truly done a miraculous re-invention! If he stays the starter that means he has surpassed Hill as a passer and I am very confident that Hill can lead the team and have a great year at QB. It would mean a LOT in his reclamation if he did that...and that means we all WIN!
 
Groovepro said:
I can only go by what I have seen to assess. Hill HAS progressed in his QB play. His throwing motion and feet have changed from limited action in previous years (preseason and spot duty). He is accurate in short/intermediate and has a good deep ball. His 4 starts give me more promise (contrary to popular belief he DIDN'T just read one side of the field, made some great tight window throws, accurate, etc...held ball a few times longer than wanted a couple times...that wasn't his whole game and take away all the stuff he did RIGHT...with first time starting as full time QB, too) and optimism, just as QB than what I have seen from a LARGE collection of Winston in the NFL.

The 49ers game with Winston, he looked good early and checked down and made a few nice anticipation throws, but then he just started throwing the ball randomly as got more pressure (after sacked) and just got the "deer in the headlights" look and body language. Maybe he can get it all erased and re-invent himself, but that is a really tough go.

The things he naturally does are not because of bad coaching, bad system, bad WR's, bad eyesight...it is pure, "knee jerk" decision making. He has had good talent around him bail him out often with these low percentage "hope for the best" throws. Has he made some beautiful deep throws, YES...most are lined up straight and between the yd line numbers (ala the throw he made against TB on trick play). He reverts to the same decision making when the pressure starts to mount. I think we will always see that from him to some degree no matter how much he has progressed. There is a difference between being a "gunslinger" and going for a game changing 50/50 shot and just making a bad decision randomly. It is very deep in his DNA and hard to flush out. BUT, I am waiting to see how it all pans out. If he starts and still has the job after week 5, then he has truly done a miraculous re-invention! If he stays the starter that means he has surpassed Hill as a passer and I am very confident that Hill can lead the team and have a great year at QB. It would mean a LOT in his reclamation if he did that...and that means we all WIN!
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I agree with you. I honestly don't know what games people who say he looked less than impressive was watching. When I watched the four starts I saw someone who had great footwork and mechanics. His pocket presence and awareness needs to improve this year but he was definitely impressive to me not just with his play but the overall improvement he showed that you mentioned. And he was crazy accurate and a good decision maker with the ball in regards to not making terrible decisions and throwing ints. As I said on another thread there's a huge difference between missing a read compared to making a bad decision on where to go with the ball. Taysom missed reads but he didn't make bad decisions throwing the football.
 
Reddoctober86 said:
I agree with you. I honestly don't know what games people who say he looked less than impressive was watching. When I watched the four starts I saw someone who had great footwork and mechanics. His pocket presence and awareness needs to improve this year but he was definitely impressive to me not just with his play but the overall improvement he showed that you mentioned. And he was crazy accurate and a good decision maker with the ball in regards to not making terrible decisions and throwing ints. As I said on another thread there's a huge difference between missing a read compared to making a bad decision on where to go with the ball. Taysom missed reads but he didn't make bad decisions throwing the football.
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Agree. If you haven't watched that full, hour long scouting of Winston, do so. There are times with a good throw in a tight window for a few yards, but you see at least 2 other options missed for more yardage or just a better option open. A lot of the even "positive" throws had missed reads around it. Of course, every QB will miss a read, hold the ball too long, toss an INT, etc. BUT, I ended up seeing a lot still left on the field with even the "WIN" completions. Hill held the ball too long at times in the Philly game, he missed 1 WIDE OPEN read. He was sacked by his own fault at times but that wasn't the collective of his entire game and what caused us to LOSE.

I am in a minority of thinking that Winston has LESS ceiling than Hill. I think Winston has almost reached his ceiling as an NFL QB. That has NOTHING to do with arm strength. I judge it by what can you realistically accomplish. Jeff George had all the physical tools to make all the throws, but I don't think a ceiling should be measured by arm strength. "He can make all the throws" is not an accurate description, does he have the TOOLS to make all the throws, yes, but Jameis just hasn't in his NFL career. Hill keeps getting better and has a lot of intangibles already in place to add to his progressing QB position. Winston has a strong arm. I think Hill can progress to a point that Winston can't get to as a whole package QB, IMHO. If just go by "if Winston changes his entire game, mechanics, footwork and mental game", I guess the sky is the limit for "ceiling".

People look at Hill and say he could be an "all-pro" tight end. What is the realistic ceiling for that...LOW. He is not a natural TE, not a natural every down pass catcher, etc. He can block in spot duty, he is fast, he has shown he can catch the ball, but it is not a natural part of his football DNA and he would be way far behind any career, mediocre TE who has played the position over years or even a WR converted (since a lot translates). Winston can progress and get better, but to what degree to be a winning QB who can take the game on his shoulders, rally the team and WIN? He might surprise us and if does it will be one the most incredible re-inventions of an NFL player I have ever seen.
 
dutar76 said:
How saints fans feel about Jameis.

1/3 only see the potential
1/3 only see the flaws
1/3 wait and see...

3/3 hope his pre-game hype huddle has improved from "eat the W"
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I’m solidly in the wait and see camp. I want him to be the new GOAT but there is good reason to be concerned. Anyways, I’m rooting for him.
 
ThrowbackSaintXXL said:
LoL notice u couldn't list another WR. How bout we ask E. Sanders? The guy looked like he wanted to pull his hair out with Hill @ QB
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Sanders averaged 4 catches per game last year. In 4 games with TH7, he averaged 3 catches a game. Really 3 games bc you can toss all stats out of the window for the Broncos sham of a game. Remove that game and Sanders was right at his average of 4 a game. Sanders was doing nothing different with Drew that he wasn’t doing with Hill. Maybe Sanders was frustrated at himself more than he was at TH7? And we can’t name any other WR (not named MT or Sanders) bc they are barely decent in the passing game.
 
SweetT said:
Sanders averaged 4 catches per game last year. In 4 games with TH7, he averaged 3 catches a game. Really 3 games bc you can toss all stats out of the window for the Broncos sham of a game. Remove that game and Sanders was right at his average of 4 a game. Sanders was doing nothing different with Drew that he wasn’t doing with Hill. Maybe Sanders was frustrated at himself more than he was at TH7? And we can’t name any other WR (not named MT or Sanders) bc they are barely decent in the passing game.
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Why throw out the Denver game tho? It was still part of his evaluation. And it was that game in particular that Sanders looked the most frustrated with Hill's play

U can say the guys other than MT & Sanders are barely decent but tape would probably reveal that Hill stayed missing them on some routes aswell. They can't get better than barely decent if the QB doesn't hit em when they're open
 

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